23 July, 2009

PBP Rims, Updated


PBP rims are here. From Tom's VO Imports blog:

For years cyclists have been lamenting the loss of the simple box section rim in a shiny silver polished finish. They were available here and there but you really had to scour local swap meets, eBay and Craigslist. If you did find them they were usually used, and in varying ranges of condition, mostly poor to fair at best and required a careful and very experienced builder to get them close to true.

Well, no more of that. Velo Orange has worked for months with one of the premier rim companies in Taiwan. We researched different widths, shapes, and materials, and what was being currently sold. It quickly became apparent that we needed to offer an alloy doublewall rim. Doublewall construction adds a bit of weight as compared to singlewall (or open box) rims, but we feel a classic doublewall box design is far superior in terms of overall strength, load capacity, and impact resistance.

The PBP rims in house weigh around 450g. The 19mm outside width and 13.2mm inside width is ideal for tires up to 32mm.

We paid a little more for stainless eyelets and a lot more for a high polish finish. We kept the graphics down to an absolute minimum; there is a simple VO sticker for identity.

The 700c PBP rim is offered in 36 and 32 hole versions. For wheelbuilders, ERD is 606mm.
The price is $50 (not $40 as we initially thought; sorry).

Since Chris is on vacation, questions in the comments may not be answered for a long time.

UPDATE: After reviewing all the costs we realized that the price of these rims has to be $50, more than we initially thought, but still pretty reasonable. Chris says he was simply looking at the wrong column in one of Tom's infamous (and yard wide) spreadsheets.

33 comments:

hung said...

Are the eyelets single or double?

rob hawks said...

Thanks for offering this rim. What results were obtained when mounting the Grand Bois tires (in particular the 28s) on these rims? It was mentioned that they resemble the Mavic MA2. I have some wheelsets built with MA2 rims and mounting the Grand Bois 28mm tires was by far the hardest task in tire mounting I've ever had, by an order of magnitude more difficult than anything else.

thanks,
rob hawks

Anonymous said...

MA2 rims worked well with most tires. If mounting Grand Boise tires is difficult that's probably because the tires were out of spec. GB has had a lot of problems with quality control. The 30mm GB tires I bought were very hard to seat on any rim.

David Benson said...

Brilliant!
How about doing a batch of 40-hole rims?
I bet I'm not the only one who has a few 32/40 hubsets in need of new rims.

rob hawks said...

The GB/MA2 combination was particularly difficult. I could take the exact same tire and easily mount it on a Mavic Open Pro, so I don't feel the tires were 'out of spec'. MA2 rims would sometimes prove to be problematic for other tire mounting and in general were *a little* harder on which to mount most tires, though never the impediment presented by the GB/MA2 combination.

Can you point me to your source on the quality control problems with Grand Bois tires? I've used these tires for thousands of miles and found them reliable.

In short, I'm hoping that the VO PBP rims offer most of the best aspects of MA2 rims but don't exhibit the same tire mounting issues.

rob hawks

Anonymous said...

These sound very nice. Any chance of a wider rim, something that will fit 32s or even a little wider?

cleve said...

No 650b rims for a 42mm tire ?!!

Kathryn

Anonymous said...

The VO Imports blog says the 650b rims will arrive in November.

Gary said...

Nice rim at a good price but why so narrow? I would think many of VO's customers are riding 28mm or wider tires. I'd love to see a version between 23 and 25mm.

rob hawks said...

I'm happy this isn't too much wider than it is. The rim is named after the Paris, Brest et retour randonnee in France, held every four years. In the US, to qualify for that ride one must complete a Super Randonneur series of 200, 300, 400 and 600km brevets. This year I rode all of those plus a few extra 200km brevets. I use Grand Bois 28mm tires on my randonneur bike, having once used '25mm' Continential tires. My tires at 28mm were wider than about 99% of the other tires I saw on all those brevets, and wider than about 95+% of those tires I saw on PBP in 2007. (Jan H's tires were probably wider, but then I didn't see him or his bike ;^)

The VO PBP rims are listed as good for tires up to 30mm. Seems as though it is hitting it's target, no?

rob hawks

Anonymous said...

you guys are heroes!!

Garth said...

Yes, it does seem to be hitting it' mark.

I think there are a bunch of us who would still like such a rim to fit 32-37c tires. Perhaps it needs a different name, though?

I'm not so inspired to use the CR18 rims, though they have the reputation. I would prefer something a little classier looking.

Garth

Anonymous said...

What is braking like on a polished sidewall?

Anonymous said...

Will these eventually be available in something like two dozen fashion-oriented colours for us aging faux-hipster types ?

Tom said...

I think there is merit to the CR18 design and shape, even though it's a departure from a classic box section look.
A simple box section rim without any triangulation or additional reinforcement inside (making it a 'triple hollow') will be prone to going out of true and will not have the weight capacity that the CR18 design has. It's a purpose built rim, designed around wider tires for bikes that are subject to heavier loads and are ridden on uneven terrain and unpaved roads and trails.

The tires we stock- Vittorias and Panaracers both fit the PBP rim. The Panaracers are a little tighter but can go on without the use of a tire lever.

If we can sell a couple hundred 40h rims, I'd order them in that drilling, but i'm not so sure there are that many hubs (or a need) for such a rim.

Nicholas Grieco said...

Thanks for specifying stainless eyelets. What is the rim alloy?

Andrew said...

Anonymous says: "GB has had a lot of problems with quality control". According to who? I've not read anything on any of the lists suggesting that this is the case, and I've used the 650b Hetre, 650b Cypres, 700c Cypres and they've all been perfect.

Garth said...

Tom,

Thanks for your reply. Box section vs. newer designs was not something I was fully aware of.

Awesome work on the PBP rims!

Garth

nordic_68 said...

Interesting. I'd like to hear technical commentary on why box section rims are considered "far superior in terms of overall strength, load capacity, and impact resistance". For instance comparing this product to a Velocity Dyad touring rim, triangular cross-section, light and strong.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as a mechanical engineer I don't understand the assumption made about the superiority about box section rims. Please help me learn...

Anonymous said...

I think Tom was comparing classic-style rims like Super Champions or the GB rims to box section rims, not to modern high profile rims like the Velocity.

johnson said...

polished rims brake fine, after you break them in on some dirt roads. in certain cases they can cause squealing, and dont stop quite as well in wet weather. they make up for this in longevity and looks, i think.

cleve said...

Are these welded or pinned?

Tom said...

I was comparing our PBP doublewall rim to singlewall rims. A doublewall rim is much stronger, especially when building them on modern bikes with hubs and frames spaced for 130/135.

Any deep section rim, like the Dyad or Deep V, is going to be stiffer and stronger than a box section rim.

The PBP rim is pinned.

Regarding braking performance, a raw brake track provides much better braking friction than an anodized or painted surface. Sun Rims keeps their brake track un-anodized for this reason. Since our PBP rims are polished and un-anodized, a couple miles of use should adequately scuff up the brake track for better braking.

Lawrence Fieman said...

1. Is the rim anodized on the surface with the eyeletts, and highly polished on the breaking surfaces?

Thanks,
Larry

Red said...

Beautiful finish on these. Just like I remember from the olden days, but better. How does the demand/cost/production requirement equation look for the possibility of 650B and 27" sizes?

Anonymous said...

You still haven't answered the very first question, right? Single or double eyelet?
Thanks,
Bruce

Anonymous said...

Chris or Tom said, in an earlier post, that VO rims have single eyelets because double eyelets are not needed with modern stronger alloys.

Anonymous said...

$50 ? your kidding right ?

Tom said...

At $50, they are 20 bucks less than the singlewall (or open box, or whatever euphemism used) Grand Bois beach cruiser rims.
Jan professes to sell scads of them to discerning randonneuristas and porteur professionals.

Why is $20 less for a rim better suited to bikes and the terrain they will be riding on- old and new- so shocking?

Anonymous said...

Will price of 50 dollars be one pair of price?

Tom said...

Unlike the Grand Bois Rims, they are sold per each so you can mix up drilling: 32 back, 32 in front for example. We also charge actual shipping- not a blanket charge for the entire US, or Canada, or Europe.

Tim said...

I assume this rim measures the same as the MA2, so I can use the same spokes?

Anonymous said...

This rim's finish looks great, vastly superior to other rims currently available. However the shape is still not quite right, from the photos, it looks like it is quite a deep section rim compared with the older Super Champion and Mavic rims.

Looks like it has single eyelets to me. If so, then you need different length spokes compared with the MA2.

Even if it has double eyelets, you probably also need new spokes as the sides are deeper.