We received some shiny prototypes yesterday.
These rims may become a new VO product. They are double wall and fully polished. I really wanted a classic-like rim that was as strong as a modern rim.
They will have eylets, though this sample pair has not yet had them installed. The joint is pinned, not welded, but it is very smooth. On the down side, they are a little heavy at 550g, though they should be very strong. We can have them made in both 650b and 700c, 36h and 32h. 650b tires mount perfectly; no sizing issues like some recent rims. The generous 24.5mm width is ideal for 28mm to 45mm tires. Price would be just under $50.
We're still looking at a couple of other options, but I like these rims a lot. The plan would be to sell them as plain rims and built up as stock wheels, maybe laced to Shimano 105 hubs at first and to internal geared hubs later.
A few weeks ago I mentioned a new finish on some VO fenders. The photo shows a new 38mm (for tires to 28mm) VO alloy fender. It's not polished, but rather chrome plated. This means that it weighs only a few grams more than out regular fender, but is even more scratch resistant than our stainless steel fender. We are not exactly sure of the cost yet, $10-$15 over standard VO fenders. Is it worth the premium?
Also, we now have those digital calipers I mentioned a while ago.
18 February, 2009
Shiny Rims and Fenders
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69 comments:
rims look great. my casual understanding is that sun isn't making the high polish CR18s any more. at least, that's what i seem to recall from the harris cyclery site. i know you guys still have them. they are a great rim.
Chris -
The rims look nice, but as they are significantly heavier than the CR18, what's the advantage? Do they just look that much better in real life?
Like the 650b rim option, in both 32h and 36h.
I would rather have more sizes of the same VO fenders (stainless steel or aluminum)--for example, 650bx40mm for bikes with narrow forks that uses grand bois cypres 650bx32mm--then having another model that serves the same sizes you already have
I think the chrome is worth the premium most especially on the zeppelin and others that have fancy shaping to them.
The rims look nice, but as they are significantly heavier than the CR18, what's the advantage? Do they just look that much better in real life?
the advantage to a heavier rim is that it is stronger (or at least should be). so, loading that 650b touring bike up and heading out over some fire roads isnt gunna turn your rim into a taco.
these rims look good, and the fenders look good as well.
Oh hell, Chris, you know that I'm like an old crow; I love anything shiney. It's all good.
Personally I'd rather see a 38mm VO in the standard finishes (at standard prices) before a more expensive polished version. I really want to buy your fenders, but have been waiting for a 35-38mm size.
chrome plated 650B zepplins please. Right now the Berthoud is the only rugged everyday 650B fender.
Renate, All over the world people have used alloy fenders as everyday fenders for decades. Steel fenders were traditionally used by folks who could not afford alloy, or for work bikes.
What exactly are you talking about? Very few production bikes had plain alloy fenders. And the only allow fenders that aged well on the streets of europe were hammered Lefols and those were never common. That's not a very good argument, simply claiming that "lots of people" have done something they didn't actually do. You obviously don't know much about the bicycles that actually existed in europe.
Smooth aluminium fenders don't age well in urban conditions, unless you are lucky enough to never have to park your bike near anyone else.
It's true that most production bikes used steel fenders, later plastic. But VO primarily sells parts for custom and high end bikes. Constructeur bikes usually had alloy fenders, even the city and porteur bikes.
I can speak to the durability of the VO alloy zeppelin fenders- I got the 650b-sized fenders for my 26" wheeled winter bike. so far, I've not had a single problem with them. They have withstood heavy wisconsin snow, slush, studded tires, crashing on the ice and getting whanged by idiots at the grocery store. They've actually been considerably less hassle than the stainless steel Berthoud fenders I have on another bike.
Durability has not been a problem so far. As for parking near anyone else, It has not been a problem at all. Of course, your mileage may vary.
Regarding rims, I think $30 is the pricepoint to aim for. I can easily source Sun CR-18's for $30 and I'm pretty happy with the Suns - they are also lighter than the prototypes you have . If there was a polished option within a few bucks of the CR-18 and not too heavy then I'd certainly be interested. At $50 you have a lot more competition.
I do like the width of the prototype.
Having had Honjo, Berthoud, and VO fenders on a number of bikes and having used them for city riding, I'll attest to the reasonable durability of VO fenders.
They are a somewhat heavier gauge than the Honjos, which do dent very easily and, imo, are not suitable for anything approaching hard duty. The VO's, while not as bulletproof as the Berthoud SS, and not as heavy, in all fairness, need a pretty good whack to take a dent. They are substantial, and suitable for everyday use.
The brushed aluminum finish supports this usage, since to remove, or obscure, minor scratches, you just dry scrub them a little with some fine steel wool. The chrome plating is a nice option, I'd spring an extra 10-15 bucks for this where I wanted the look. My only question is the long term durability of chrome plating on aluminum - seems to be coming out on some new products, this used to be a rarity/impossibility in the past on aluminum parts - somebody must have a new process? Or I'm just uninformed.
Also, of the three support systems, the VO are the easiest to install and get a good fender line.
Overall, I've found the VO fenders to be one of their standout products - fills a niche that went unserved before, for us and perhaps also for the European city bikers of yore.
Fenders like rims, tires and chains do not last forever. Of course you can build those components up to tank like indestructible standards but then you would have a bike you wouldn't want to ride that would last forever.
rims look nice, if they are strong i don't see the weight as a downside. mavic ma3s weigh 490 and salsa delgado a little less than that. i would by them the next time i needed a set
I like chrome fenders as much as the next old coot, but like robatsu I have to wonder about the durability of chrome on aluminum. I have not had much luck with that in the past, and a bike fender flexes a lot too.
Berthoud stays are my favorite by a wide margin, for several reasons. I have Berthoud stays on some fluted Honjos and that turned out to be a fine combination.
A polished CR-18 rim is hard to beat. They look great, don't cost much, build up nice, and are plenty strong. If they looked more like old Mavics they would be even better, but I'm very happy with them as they are.
I agree with the above, there's a reason very few springs are chromed. Fender life will most likely be compromised as the chrome will crack and this will propagate to the alloy. Nickel plating may be a better option.
I think the VO fenders are great just the way they are, especially when their not predrilled.
quality rims should be single chamber,
like DT or Velocity.
three chambers are just an excuse to use wire pins, and add unnecessary weight, not strength.
I'd like to see a light box-section rim: kinda Velocity Dyad but non-aero.
Am I the only person that thinks that Sun rims in general have taken a massive dive in quality in the last 5+ years? The CR-18 used to be my favorite but I loathe to build on them now. I'm not too excited about any other rims either but these possible VO prototypes have me excited.
I really don't care about a few extra grams on my rims if they are built to last. I also like the non-machined sidewalls, I've always felt like having a machined sidewall was just inviting pre-mature rim wear, like the wear has already been started for you.
If you can't do all four varieties I'd say just get 36hole in 584 and 622, let the 32hole people find their appropriately under-massed rims.
The chrome fenders sound great, look forward to purchasing a pair. Please tell me that they will be available in 650b. I agree that sun rims have gone down in quality over the last five years, but for the price point they are still hard to beat. The prototype rims look pretty nice, weight should not matter as much as strength. Can you please tell us country of origin? Thanks, keep up the good work Chris.
"I'd like to see a light box-section rim"
I'll second that!
There's a massive number of older sport/racer bikes out there from the 70's, 80's, and early 90's, not to mention the retro fixie folk. NOS sport rims are expensive and in short supply. Current production models all look wrong on these bikes, being mostly "aero" cross sectioned.
Find a rim maker who will supply a Mavic MA-40 profile in 36 and 32 hole, have it weigh 450-480g, finish in polished silver first, then a dark grey "hard annodized", cuz they're cool too, and you will find a demand.
BTW, a 450g compact narrowish box section rim is strong as hell. Keith Bontrager got his start in the parts biz by cutting down MA40's for mountain bike users.
EE
Re: lightweight single chamber box rim - you can't go far wrong with a Salsa Delgado-X.
Affordable. Comes silvery too, for you old farts.
Looks like there may be enough shiny VO components to make a build group: stem, seatpost, rims, fenders, calipers.
As to fender finish - some Mother's aluminum polish and 20 minutes make my Zeppelin's look pretty good.
9:22,
Close but...
Looks to be a good serviceable rim, but for the market I'm part of and identified - mid 70's-90's road bike owners, over 500g is far less marketable. Calling is a "cross" model, and the chili pepper logo, also detracts.
Trivial? Well, VO wouldn't exist if there weren't a bunch of fussy detail oriented consumers out there who care about such things.
EE
VO tries to make parts for rando and city bikes. Stuff for old road bikes overlaps, but it is not really our focus.
Chris, That strikes me as an odd response.
Most randonnuers are quite performance minded, seeking light and dependable components and frames. A 450-480 gram MA40 style rim is well suited for 28c tires. A combination that is more conservative than many participants choose these days.
Super Champion Gentleman's were 500g. MA40's were just as dependable and a bit lighter. Both well suited for performance minded randonnuering.
EE
So peel the stickers and write "Mavic" with a Sharpie.
Regarding the sample rims, 550 g is pretty decent for a rim that wide.
Personally I'd be more interested in a Velocity-style 22 mm rim, sort of the missing link between the Aerohead and the Dyad.
As someone earlier wrote, it looks as if you're headed towards coming out with a whole group, actually beyond a traditional group. Rather like Rene Herse or maybe Lambert. Let us hope...
When I say rando, I don't mean just the folks who ride brevets. They are a relatively small small group. The broader term includes cyclo-tourists, folks who ride traditional bikes with wider tires, go on long slow rides in the country and on credit card tours, etc.
And our focus on city bikes is primarily geared toward traditional European-style city bikes.
That's the sort of bikes and riding I enjoy most so that's where my efforts go.
BTW, the MA40 was a good rim and if I happen to find a company that makes a close copy we'll import them, but not in gray anodized. There are boundaries.
Gunner, when the next production frame sample arrives it will be built up with as many VO parts as possible. Still no drive train though; that's the hard part.
Indulge me in sharing my rim philosopy:
There are three major rim groups, by internal width: 15, 17 and 19 mm.
These are the "racing", "inbetween" and "mtb/loaded touring" groups. The "inbetween" is for light tourers, light hybrids, etc. In addition to these main groups there are two extremes: super skinny 13 mm and >22 mm super wide. To my mind, a rim should be fitted with the biggest tyre that will fit comfortably, without squirm.
Some would say a frame should also be fitted with the fattest tyre that will fit comfortably.
In my experience, these rim/tyre relationships are as follows:
13 mm - 25 mm
15 mm - 28 mm
17 mm - 32 mm
19 mm - 40 mm
>22 mm - >50mm
Subsequently, tire sizes that aren't the largest comfortable fit with the major internal rim widths don't make sense to me.
An old road racing bike probably wouldn't fit anything larger than 28's with fenders anyway, so a 19 mm (24 exterior) would be a strange choice, regardless of weight, stickers or polish.
19x622 at 550 g is a peace-of-mind touring/trekking rim. At 460 g it would be a slow-down-before-the-cattle-grid touring/trekking rim.
Chris K wrote:
"BTW, the MA40 was a good rim and if I happen to find a company that makes a close copy we'll import them"
Araya?
http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/rim/catalog/41_tx-310f.htm
It's a different profile than the MA40 but it's a good looking box section rim in silver with a reasonable weight and decent width.
Or you could ask very nicely to have these made in 700c:
http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/rim/catalog/22_rm-940xc.htm
How about fenders for 26" tires? Any chance of those ever being available?
VO already has fenders for 26" tires!
Ain't anyone gonna comment on the environment impact of chrome? Come on guys!
Oh, and my earlier comment about "Lambert" was intended to be provocative.
I'm with the redoubtable Mr. Berg. Chrome plating is devastating to the environment, and in almost every circumstance, beautifully polished, un-clearcoated alloy is much much much more attractive to my eye than something chromed. Chrome is for Harleys.
I think it would be better to go with the trusted CR18s, but to have them highly polished.
Well I can probably safely say that the country of origin must be China for these rims. I noticed Chris did not answer the country of origin question, which would lead me to beleive that they are manufactured in China. It seems to be a taboo question for him, It would be nice for consumers to know so they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to purchase these items. We vote with are hard earned dollars, consumers have the right to know country of origin. Sorry about the rant, the fenders sound cool but people should just spend 30 minutes with some semichrome polish. I can see my reflection in the VO fenders that I polished, very sexy.
Chris, I am concerned about one thing you said:
"And our focus on city bikes is primarily geared toward traditional European-style city bikes.
That's the sort of bikes and riding I enjoy most so that's where my efforts go."
I just hope that you have time these days to do that riding you enjoy most, and aren't too busy answering all our silly emails and responding to comments demanding more and more and more...
Hopefully I make it out east this summer on a tour to kidnap you for a weekend away for malty goodness and fine pedaling! And if I don't, please, someone else should! In fact, maybe that should be a Velo Orange themed weekend outing come spring: The "Velo Orange Fan Club Kidnap the Staff and Go for A really Fun Ride in the Country and Drink Beer and Wine and Have a Nice Time Doing So Ride." Or the VOFCKSGRFRCDBWHNTDSR. Okay, so the name isn't too catchy, but you get the idea.
I would say wait for rims that are similar in construction to the MA-2 but a bit wider (2-3mm) to better fit wider tires. Somewhere under 500g. I think a box section rim like this with double SS eyelets (or single if double is not doable) and simple polished Al finish would be a hit. Have you seen what NOS MA-2's go for these days? That used to be one of Mavic's cheapest rims. No anno, no machined brake area of course. Simple, classic, durable.
WRT the pictured rims I see no great advantage over the CR18 and the price is considerably higher.
Ok, so chrome is bad for the environment.
OTOH, Grant/Rivendell now pushes the philosophy that polishing is dehumanizing work that exploits low wage workers.
Just can't win on this one....
FYI, "Made In Taiwan" frequently translates to "Outsourced to China".
So VO is more focused on nurturing a modern interpretation of a vintage style rather than supporting the original bikes?
Interesting, more of a revivalist approach than a preservationist one. Certainly more opportunity for growth if interest in these styles continues to grow as it has in recent years.
ChrisCullum - I think the rim you're "waiting" for is the Velocity Synergy. Cheers.
Once again an anonymous commenter brings up stuff being made in China. The rims, like most VO brand stuff, are made in a factory in Taiwan, not in China.
In my mind discriminating against people because of nothing more than the country they live in is just plain bigotry. There are good people and good companies in every country in the world and they should be supported. When I was young we lived in Virginia where I remember people saying they wouldn't shop in a store owned by African Americans. For some reason I am now reminded of this.
So you see why I am reluctant to make a big deal of "country of origin." If you don't trust me to source responsibly then you might be happier commenting and shopping elsewhere. I am, frankly, not open to discussion on this.
I've visited manufacturing facilities in Taiwan and Japan for 15 years. None of them are dirt floor factories. Many of them (Tektro, Alex, SRAM, Kalloy, KT, for example) are better run and cleaner than the machine shop across the street or the boat builder next door from Velo Orange. Most of the factories we work with- family run enterprises with a small staff- do their materials sourcing from Taiwan, their fabrication in house, in their own facility. Nothing is offshored to China or Vietnam. there will be some exceptions, but overall, it's Made In Taiwan because that is honestly descriptive of its origin. How much of your GM 'made in America (more like North America)' car is actually sourced locally, domestically- raw materials, sub assemblies, not off shored or outsourced?
Taiwan has a nationalized health care system, minimum 3 weeks legislated paid time off, 6 months paid maternity leave for mother AND Father.
Environmentally, Taiwan has improved by leaps and bounds. All these changes are due to increased investment in Taiwan infrastructure.
What are your requirements for buying products? USA only?
"Ok, so chrome is bad for the environment.
OTOH, Grant/Rivendell now pushes the philosophy that polishing is dehumanizing work that exploits low wage workers.
Just can't win on this one...."
The chrome plating process does emit all sorts of toxic metal, including mercury, waste into the air and water.
On the other hand, polishing metal involves standing in front of a load and powerful polishing tool holding a metal object covered with chemicals for a long period of time. The next time you spend half an hour applying simichrome to your polished bike bits, think about what it took to make dull metal shiney in the first place.
Then figure the cost of the shiney product. If it took a person 30 minutes to polish it, you have to have either one of two things happen - the product would need to cost a lot more if the person makes a decent wage, or the person would have to get little pay.
There are no other alternatives - except for being happy with something that is not all shiney.
Joel, Sorry but there is no comparison. Chrome plating releases some very harmful chemicals. Polishing compound is abrasive powder mixed with wax. Most polishing compounds are not even toxic.
It takes only a few minutes for a skilled polisher to polish a part, not 30 minutes. The polisher does not make as much as a welder or machinist, but he is hardly exploited. Paul brakes are polished by hand here in the USA. Does Paul exploit workers? Maybe Grant is just trying to push what he sells?
"It takes only a few minutes for a skilled polisher to polish a part, not 30 minutes. The polisher does not make as much as a welder or machinist, but he is hardly exploited. Paul brakes are polished by hand here in the USA. Does Paul exploit workers? Maybe Grant is just trying to push what he sells?"
Your statement in no way refutes mine.
First, I did not say polishing chemicals are as dangerous as chrome plating. But they are not pleasant.
Second, I guess it depends on the product. A handlebar may not take all that long to polish. A crank or brakes with all their varying surfaces take longer.
Third, Paul brakes sell for several hundred dollars (and are sold by Rivendell by the way), not for the $70.00 dollars or so for shiny Tektro brakes (which are also sold by Rivendell both as Tektro and under the Rivendell brand name). Suggesting Paul pays the U.S. polisher a fair wage - and more than the Tektro polisher gets.
As for your diss on Peterson, As I say above, Rivendell sells both Paul and shiny Tektro brakes. Rivendell sells other polished compoenents as well. Some made in the US, some in Japan, some in Taiwan. Peterson believes in being open about what the manufacturing entails. Your suggestion Peterson is motivated by greed makes no sense at all. Frankly, I think people should be aware of what it takes to make the stuff they buy.
The rims are definitely nice, I want to do a 650B bike this year.
Probably an impossible dream, but I'd like to see a rim with a slight, shallow, continuous curve profile rather than the angled, sort of zeppelin look that are on these, CR-18's.
Shiny too. If it turns out this is unethical, leave them w/the finish that comes on VO fenders, it only takes me a few minutes to polish them up myself.
Well, either I am doing something wrong or too fussy. When I Simichrome, it takes me about 20 minutes per fender.
If I were to pay some to polish the fenders what I charge for hour in my job, those 40 minutes would cost $384.00.
Left out 'one' after some.
Joel,
I make $14.50/Hour before taxes, would you pay me to polish a fender?
PS - buy a mandrel and buffing wheel for a power drill - it costs a few bucks at a hardware store. You'll get a mirror polish in a minute or less on most parts - a fender, a few minutes tops.
I would feel guilty paying someone $14 bucks for 40 minutes of work. Heck, my cleaning person gets three times that and she doesn't do windows.
I am talking polishing already mounted fenders. The bike has racks front and rear. Rear rack has a light mounted on it.
It would take almost as long to get everything off in order to access with a buffer than polishing by hand.
"I would feel guilty paying someone $14 bucks for 40 minutes of work."
My employer doesn't feel guilty - In fact, I'm one of the higher paid employees at my job. I work hard for that money and I need it. Sorry to hear your house cleaner doesn't do windows - must be tough.
Oh it is pure misery!
My home is modest sized. I could easily do the work myself. But I have no dependents and the cleaner needs the work. So why not if I get extra time to fool with my bikes?
I work on bikes (which involves a lot of cleaning and some polishing activities) all day long for $13/hr.
Would you feel guilty for paying me to work on your bike?
Did you feel guilty when you bought a sandwich from me that I was paid $5.25/hr to make?
Joel: Might be time to change to ol' username.
"the" ol' username
Anonyme 15:40: The LBS I use in Chicago is progressive. The owner does a lot of the work himself and pays his small and very loyal staff a good wage. I give them parts and Xmas gifts.
Two responses to the sandwich question:
1st, I hope it does not take much more than 5 minutes to make a sandwich.
2nd, many restuarants do indeed pose real labor problems even in the U.S. Consumers can make things right with the wait and bus staff by giving a fair tip.
Most assume the kitchen staff are well paid trained professionals. Reality is often far different. Many so called top level restaurants in Chicago anyway have been caught using illegal aliens. These restaurants will have one or two trained kitchen staff and everyone else has no idea what is going on.
Meaning bigger risk of tainted food and untrained workers getting injured or sick.
Ian: Fortunately my cleaning person does not use the internet.
Joel, I'm wondering what you consider a good wage for bicycle repair work. Is it considerably more than $13/hr? If so, is this progressive shop hiring and how much is a train ticket to Chicago?
Yes it only took a few minutes to make your sandwich, but I made them all day long (as well as cleaned the bathrooms that you used). In many ways is was a much more intense and dangerous work place. Was my labor not worth more than $5.25/hr.
1) If those rims become available, I'm going to build an extra set of wheels for my Herse using them. Beautiful.
2) The whole debate about polishing is elitist, which fits right into the Rivendell business model.
Nobody, to my knowledge, is chained in front of a polishing wheel for hours on end to polish parts. It may be a difficult, unpleasant job, but if there's demand and the pay is right, you'll always find people willing to fill the need.
Elitists like the Rivendell guy argue that polishing is dangerous, tedious, and labor intensive. Why? Because they have the option to take another job. Personally, I'm glad that labor intensive, low-skill jobs like these exist--without them, I wouldn't have been able to pay for college, nor would my parents have been able to put food on the table. Plus--although the pay is low--it's a lot higher than service industries.
More polished parts, please. I'm sure that between my bikes I'm exploiting at least one professional polisher.
At the $50 range I agree the Velocity Synergy is a very good rim, but it's not truly traditional looking box section rim like a Mavic MA-2 or Super Champion Mod 58. I think that is the look VO is trying to go for here and I don't think the prototype is quite there. Plus it is a tad heavy, a bit pricey (compared to a CR18) and unproven. For $50 you're right I would go for the Velocity but I still think there is a market for the rim I described earlier.
rivendell, elitist? thats funny!
when's the last time you read a rivendell reader?
Polishing is not hard work, as long as you're using a motorized buffer. It's more work to polish something the first time, but aluminum is pretty soft and easy anyway. You'd have to be careful to overdue it. I love polishing. I would do it almost all day long if I was paid a living wage.
Still, despite Joel belonging to one of the higher castes, and coming across as patronizing, I think his heart is in the right place. It's just that we live in a class system. Where there are winners, there are losers. I used to be a real low level loser when I worked at McDonalds. Was my labor really only worth $4.25? No!!! Look at all the profits that McDonalds turns. My labor was worth more than I was paid, but they kept the money. Check out "The Corporation."
Is Rivendell elitist? Well, once again, that's relative. As functional as so much of it is, the nice wool and all, it's still a luxury product. Oh, it's dirt cheap compared to owning a car, sure. Still, I have yet to see another cyclist out in the wee hours of the morning doing their Monday commute on a Rivendell.
Still, if you have the money, or are dedicated, they offer up a product that complements a lifestyle many people would like to live. Some people even do live that lifestyle. I'm sure there's lots of posers, and I'm probably one. But there's also a lot of people who simply enjoy the stuff, whether it's Rivendell or VO and they have the money and it's still a lot less money than a car, blah blah blah
Joel, can I ask if you are referring to Blvd. Bikes? It's my favorite shop in Chicago, too.
When posting anything more controversial than "when that comes out, I'll buy two!" could we all have the decency to sign our names? I have been noticing an increasing amount of rudeness and bitterness (sometimes I am a guilty one) in these comments; you know Chris doesn't HAVE to allow this, and when we abuse his goodwill, we move ourselves one step closer to him saying 'you know what? Maybe I'll go back to Kayaks..."
I know an argument exists about the freedom of the internet and anonymity; however, CHris is in a very real sense Hosting us; the very least we can do is be good guests and remember that hospitality is a relationship.
Michael Burdge
Howzabout a compromise on the fender chroming dilemma - first sandblast the fenders and THEN chrome them.
They will look like a Starrett tools "satin chrome" finish.
Regards,
the Chicken
There are different ways to keep your rims shiny, but the best way to keep your rims fixtures or appliances clean is to maintain them regularly. It is very easy to make some scratches on it, so it is very important to clean it properly and regularly to maintain its shiny appearance.
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