We just received the first shipment of Pacenti Pari-Moto 650b x 38mm tires. In fact, I think we're the first shop to have these.
Pari-Motos are a new very high quality and supple tires made by Panaracer in Japan. Panaracer also makes the Grand Bois, Col de la Via , and various Rivendell tires, but these are made in a new mold. The tread is a fine herringbone pattern, my favorite. The width is an honest 38mm on VO Diagonale rims. I suspect they will stretch to 39mm in a few days. That makes them a touch wider than Col de la Via tire and about as wide as the 42mm Hetre tires (which measured 39.5mm on my bike).
There are two versions. The all black tires use a 127tpi casing while the tan-wall tires use a 67tpi. This means that the black tires should, in theory, be a little more supple. In practice I doubt you'll notice a difference. The black version weighs 280g, while the tan is 300g.
Is a 700C version in the works?
ReplyDeleteWas there any indication in the saga of the production of these tires why the blackwall tires were chosen to have the higher tpi count?
ReplyDeleteThe difference between 127tpi and 67tpi *sounds* pretty significant but your comment that riders might not feel the difference makes me wonder. What is a thumbnail tutorial on threads per inch as it relates to tire quality, suppleness, etc. Thanks.
ReplyDeleterob
Oh hotness. I admit to not really liking tanwall tires, of which the selection seems very good for high-quality 650b. It's nice to have the blackwall version be the nice ones for once.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the info on construction and actual width. What's the bead material? I confess that I haven't been following the discussion leading up to these being produced. Thanks.
Mile High: The Pacenti's are made by the same company that makes Pasela's and Grand Bois tires. There are numerous 700C tires under thos brand names.
ReplyDeleteKirk Pacenti is strongly behind 650B tires. I doubt he would make a special order for a 700C tire with his name when there are plenty of alternatives available.
I like to think of TPI as pencils laying next to each other on your desk, where each pencil represents an individual thread.
ReplyDeleteTo span 4" is about 13 pencils. Let's say we double the TPI, which means 26 smaller diameter pencils to span the same 4". If you visualize this, it also means that the layer is 1/2 the thickness, too. Which is where the suppleness comes from, in addition to the reduced amount of rubber needed to cover the smaller diameter threads.
That's my take on it. Go to Vittoria's website, click on "Tech" and choose "casing". There's a good explanation there.
How does this actually affect ride quality? And is it enough of an effect to matter? YMMV as they say.
I stopped by Velo-Orange to get a stem and saw the Pacenti tires. The blackwalls are insanely supple. Basically they're like huge sew-ups. Can't imagine they'd resist glass shards very well but for those folks who used to weigh 50lbs less and rode Campionato Del Mundo silk sew ups on dirt roads, I suspect this would be like that all over again.
ReplyDeleteI like to think of TPI as pencils laying next to each other on your desk, where each pencil represents an individual thread.
ReplyDeleteTo span 4" is about 13 pencils. Let's say we double the TPI, which means 26 smaller diameter pencils to span the same 4". If you visualize this, it also means that the layer is 1/2 the thickness, too. Which is where the suppleness comes from, in addition to the reduced amount of rubber needed to cover the smaller diameter threads.
That's my take on it. Go to Vittoria's website, click on "Tech" and choose "casing". There's a good explanation there.
How does this actually affect ride quality? And is it enough of an effect to matter? YMMV as they say.
So the tan walls are heavier, less supple, and more expensive than the black walls? I love the look of tan wall tires, but which one to get sure seems like a no-brainer to me.
ReplyDeleteIt makes no sense to price them differently, even given different wholesale. Why don't you just price average them to $58 and call it good. There is already much ado about tpi and cosmetics, no need to give a third point for argument.
ReplyDeleteWould it be possible to compromise and get these with one Tan 67 TPI sidewall and one Black 127 tpi sidewall ?
ReplyDeleteYou could call it the "Black and Tan" model.
I think this would quell some of the concerns over which tyre is supposed to be mo' better. I bet the B&T would tend to shimmy less when going downhill and also remove ugly age spots better than Porcelana.
Can anyone actually define suppleness in any sort of quantifiable way? Because from where I'm sitting, tire pressure is going to make much, much more difference in ride quality than sidewall thickness or flexibility or whatever.
ReplyDeleteWe all agree that flat or underinflated tires will bottom out, right? So how can the sidewall contribute anything meaningful to ride quality when a tire is properly inflated?
And while I'm asking people to split hairs, I'll buy lunch for anyone who can identify the difference between 172.5mm crank arms and 175s from the saddle.
Skeptically yours, Noah
Grant P. says "suppleness" is an illusion
ReplyDeleteNoah,
ReplyDeleteSuppleness doesn't make a difference when going over big bumps, you're right...tire pressure is the key variable for big bumps.
However differences in tire compound are noticable when riding over small bumps, rocks, irregularities, etc. Harder compounds make the bike feel like it's skating, especially in rain or cold weather.
Allan Pollock
Noah, one could discern a supple tire by the reduction in high frequency vibration transmitted through the tire to the handlebars compared to a heavier and stiffer casing. Like the difference between a truck tire and a passenger tire on a car. There's a reason most people have passenger tires on their SUVs and not truck tires, they ride more comfortably even when inflated to the same pressure.
ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons sew-ups were preferable to the first wired ons for racing besides lighter weight was that the grip was better. The wired ons are much better now and standard for racing but anyone who has ridden a fat sewup and a comparable sized heavy wired on will immediately notice the difference.
For those who enjoy the magical feeling of flying over a roadway comfortable riding tires can give a noticable difference. Which may not matter after loading the bike up with two grocery bags or getting a few extra flats.
Love the Black & Tan idea!
ReplyDeleteI guess the next best thing would be to use one of each. Which one should go on the front?
Fred, the pencil analogy is great! No idea if it's accurate, but it makes sense.
I pre ordered a set of each from Pacenti, so soon I'll be able to experiment.
While I certainly understanding the thinking of the posters wanting variations on the two models offered, suggest anyone who has not yet to check out the 650B forum.
ReplyDeleteKirk spent more than a year from concept to getting these two tires to market. His posts in the forum underscore just how much work something (to the unitiated at least) as seemingly simple as designing and manufacturing a few bike tires is.
I did not realize VO would be carrying and also pre-ordered directly from Kirk. I got a black and tan sidewall, so I can use as the mood dictates.
We talked to Kirk from the beginning about carrying these tires. We didn't buy that many, but it helped get the project off the ground. I'm not sure how many other wholesalers and retailers have committed to this. I doubt not many are interested in supporting such a niche market.
ReplyDeleteThe 650b list documents the product development timeline of this tire from the start. It is not just a Pasela or Grand Bois with a different hotpatch on it. Kirk took a huge risk in doing this, putting up a ton of his own money to bring it to fruition. It's not easy or cheap.
There are no plans to stock a 700c version, a wider version, a narrower version, a speedblend version, a black and tan version, a kevlar belted version or an OEM steel wire bead version. At least not through Velo Orange.
We really only wanted to stock the tan sidewall version, but the blackwall was made more compelling due to the higher thread count casing Kirk eventually ended up using.
For the uninitiated, here's a seachstring for Pcenti ont he 650b list:
http://search.bikelist.org/?SearchString=pacenti&SortBy=MsgDate[d]&Scope=650b
Dudes, they're tires. Pretty tires yes, but in the end just tires. Or are we referring to tyres. I get so confused. Get the best you can afford that won't leave you patching a flat in a blizzard, mount it to the rim, inflate appropriately and ride'em 'til they won't hold air anymore. But what do I know, I ride in flannel shirts, haven't left the middle ring in a week and my mother wears combat boots.
ReplyDeletep.s. any chance they'll be a 700x 60mm alu fender in the works? I've got a new bike coming that'll take big schwalbes. prefer not to use plastic.
Brother Trucker:
ReplyDeleteCome on! ;) You cannot on the one hand take us to task for wanting a luxury tire and on the other tell us you are buying the wonderful, but certainly expensive, big Schwalbe.
Most road 650B bike owners are afficinados. It stands to reason this sort of owner will be very particular about their tires.
By the way, Berthoud makes a stainless fender that fits over those big Schwalbes.
Tom: Thanks for the 5/5 1:12 p.m. post. I follow the 650B forum and agree Kirk put a lot of time and effort getting these tires to market. Rather than nit pick, I think we all need to thank Kirk - and VO for providing an outlet - for these nice new tires.
Tom, if you are going to answer all the possible particulars you are NOT going to carry , invariably one of thes commenters will ask if they go well with brie, you could write a book that no one would want to read.
ReplyDeleteI prefer Morbier.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the heads up Mr. Matthews. I'll admit my tastes are just as expensive as yours, but I wouldn't call the schwalbes luxurious. Bouncy sure.
ReplyDeleteNoah, tires have different feels that I can discern. I used to find 110 psi to ride hard until I got some new tires. I've tried them at 130 psi, and they feel softer than my old tires at 110. I might argue that the higher pressure gives me a performance advantage, but I can't measure that objectively. All I can say is that subjectively, there is a difference, and I BELIEVE I could tell it with a blind test.
ReplyDeleteTires are not all the same. All manufacturers are working very hard and competitively to improve their products. There are even technical details that the average consumer is unaware of. TPI is one thing, and I'm sure there are compound differences that I couldn't understand if someone explained them to me.
The nit-picking about the tire sidewalls has got me obsessing about other things -
ReplyDeleteI noticed that the Campagne and the Ostrich handlebar bags do not list a TPI in the specs. Why is this ?
I find it hard to endlessly speculate about miniscule differences when there is not a specification to fixate on. Which handlebar bag will roll faster and/or Plein better ?
Please specify !!
The cloth on those bags is metric threaded, so TPI does not actually apply.
ReplyDeleteThere is a conversion, but historically you must first convert to Whitworth, then to SAE(you can thank Raleigh for that).
Anon at 5/6/10 5:20 PM said:
ReplyDeleteThe nit-picking about the tire sidewalls has got me obsessing about other things -
I noticed that the Campagne and the Ostrich handlebar bags do not list a TPI in the specs. Why is this ?
I find it hard to endlessly speculate about miniscule differences when there is not a specification to fixate on. Which handlebar bag will roll faster and/or Plein better ?
Please specify !!
LOL!
Whatever you do, don't say 'je suis plein' after dinner!! (Unless, of course, you are pregnant, in which case go right ahead...).
vo-
ReplyDeleteim happy to see more tire options for the 650b market. im still waiting on a 38-45mm tire with tread - that would be way cooler. any ideas on 650b cx or path tires and possible availability? and yes i understand i can run panaracers at a lower psi but its not the same.
Fred Zeppelin, your explanation is interesting how ever a bit dated and just a small part of the equation of the way tyres are made today. TPI say nothing about how many layers the casing is made up of, nor what material, angle of the threads and additional puncture proof layers that is added to the outside of the casing and will affect the handling a lot more.
ReplyDeleteI am running Grand Bois on Enve 650B rims (Speedvagen Urban Racer) - would desperately like to go tubeless but all attempts have failed - any recomendations?
ReplyDelete