tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post921834430112490110..comments2024-03-18T10:19:55.782-04:00Comments on The Velo ORANGE Blog: Wheel ManifestoVelo Orangehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02835615331417822722noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-72520168791273532162014-02-04T10:52:24.387-05:002014-02-04T10:52:24.387-05:00When I go to the local bike shop and see a 5'3...When I go to the local bike shop and see a 5'3" woman test riding a Trekalized 29" mountain bike, I just laugh. The way the companies have to squeeze those huge wheels and tires on a small frame makes it look ridiculous and there is no way it can ride well. And the person test riding it is riding huge knobby tires in a parking lot.<br /><br />That is what the companies try and sell because it is the current trend and meets the short-term goal of selling more bikes. The bike shops have to sell whatever Trekalized says or get cut off completely. It is in no one's best interest but the bike companies'. The long term goal of not pissing off your customers and keeping them for life does not seem to matter to them.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-36987228699423525922014-02-03T13:16:17.463-05:002014-02-03T13:16:17.463-05:00My favorite bike ('72 Raleigh Grand Prix) came...My favorite bike ('72 Raleigh Grand Prix) came with 27" (630) wheels, and if that tire size were still as common and well-supported as 700c currently is, I would not have converted.<br />The all-road bike we built last winter (old Raleigh SC30 comfort bike, drop bars, 26x1.95 tires)runs 26in/559 wheels because I want air volume to support my bulk, width for our farm roads, shorter spokes for wheel strength, and cheap, easily-obtainable hybrid-type tires. The wheels look small under me, but so would 630s.<br />I think, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, wider tires have more rolling resistance, but loosing 40lbs would be a helluva lot more effective than suffering with 700x25 tires at 120psi. Or 559x38 tires at 85psi, which helped put me on the sag wagon in RAGBRAI. More air at lower psi is easier on me, the frame, and the spokes. If I lose that 40lbs, I'll keep the wider tires and lower the pressure.dana the tallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-73297097418943866512014-01-31T15:15:16.583-05:002014-01-31T15:15:16.583-05:00The crown for scaled frame sizing goes to Litevill...The crown for scaled frame sizing goes to Liteville bikes, the other company of Jo Klieber of Syntace fame, see here (not sure if links work on this blog but here goes):<br />http://syntace.my1.cc/liteville/pdf/Scaled_Sizing_Flyer_neue_rahmen.pdf<br />He considers riders from 1,57m to 1,92m and recommends four! wheel sizes. These are MTBs btw.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-5760646786540375402014-01-31T11:35:35.738-05:002014-01-31T11:35:35.738-05:00Instead of infusing this topic with my opinion, co...Instead of infusing this topic with my opinion, consider some information on high tech cycling by Edmond Burke pages 12-17 [rolling resistance] The material maybe useful and suggest basic importance on optimizing ones objective.freewheel cyclesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-82570564668676396542014-01-31T08:59:43.821-05:002014-01-31T08:59:43.821-05:00I've also come to discover that for myself, to...I've also come to discover that for myself, top tube length is the most important variable in sizing a bike. I can ride a bike with 77cm of S.O. and a bike with 84cm of S.O. with equal comfort and confidence but the bigger bike kills my lower back because the top-tube is extremely long. <br /><br />The proportional top-tube is one thing that has me really excited about the Camargue. I probably would have already purchased an Ogre if not for it's ridiculously long top-tube. <br /><br />Also, I wish the larger Camargues came with the option of 26" wheels. I find that the agility and quick acceleration of 26" wheels makes them more fun to ride than 700c wheels. Plus, big, plump fat tires just look more proportional on a 26" rim than they do on a 700c wheel.<br /><br />I really look forward to the Camargue hitting the market. Not sure I'll be able to buy one but it's at the top of my list. Chris Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-36326779293783174232014-01-31T07:46:33.163-05:002014-01-31T07:46:33.163-05:00"It's not hard to look at a bike and dete..."It's not hard to look at a bike and determine its overall quality"<br /><br />What a totally bonkers statement. There is NO WAY to simply look at a bike and determine "overall quality". Absolutely. No. Way.<br /><br />Period.@realjanmaasohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15981415303936066649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-89001322054032273992014-01-30T19:29:37.230-05:002014-01-30T19:29:37.230-05:00To Soren Hansen: Please do not size a frame in rel...To Soren Hansen: Please do not size a frame in relation to your PBH or to what the manufacturer sizes their frames. This is 100% incorrect. You can have 2 frame geometries completely different from one another but each have the manufacturer state or label the frame "size" the same cm. I've been fitting folks and been around bikes for a very long time, love me some Grant Peterson, but honestly, he knows absolutely nothing about how to size a frame proper. The most important factor in proper sizing is top tube length, followed by head tube length (as this will effect saddle to bar drop), with the seat tube length almost insignificant (you don't ride your bike straddling your top tube). The reason Grant gets away with this is because he builds many of his bikes with upright bars that sweep back. Take a look at images of his drop bar bikes. He has many with short stems or dirt drop stems to make up for the longer top tubes. That's not the correct way to set up a bike. And yes on Jan Heine. He does great research/studies on rolling resistance and is nuts on with his results. Even roadies are now running 25's on everything. fixedweaselnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-50902667201378826402014-01-30T16:55:21.750-05:002014-01-30T16:55:21.750-05:00I have to agree with the pro-wide tire commenters....I have to agree with the pro-wide tire commenters. I've commuted about 4600 miles on a pair of 26x2.35 Schwalbes I got in August of 2012. <br /><br />I don't think there's a big rolling resistance penalty. When you go fast, there is a wind resistance penalty. Getting big tires up to speed or up a hill feels harder to me. But, as gypsybytrade mentioned the ride quality is spectacular! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02756647839241313998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-78586399102075482282014-01-30T15:33:53.598-05:002014-01-30T15:33:53.598-05:00I think it absolutely makes sense to design smalle...I think it absolutely makes sense to design smaller frames around smaller wheel sizes, so kudos for that. One question I have is what is gained by going with a larger sized wheel for larger sized frames. Or what is better about using a 700c wheel with a 60cm frame vs. a 26" sized wheel? Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-37636214715089434702014-01-30T14:11:41.998-05:002014-01-30T14:11:41.998-05:00If you really want to dial in the wheel size to th...If you really want to dial in the wheel size to the frame size how about 26" on the smallest, 650b on the mid-size, and 700c on the big. I'm kidding...sort of. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-3170828939615271612014-01-30T13:46:59.305-05:002014-01-30T13:46:59.305-05:00Love the big bens. I've got a pair of the slig...Love the big bens. I've got a pair of the slightly littler little big bens to throw on the campeur frame on its way to me now. Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-73411062727186840302014-01-30T10:42:10.621-05:002014-01-30T10:42:10.621-05:00@Soren Hansen
I have a shorter torso, so I genera...@Soren Hansen<br /><br />I have a shorter torso, so I generally prefer to be on a slightly smaller frame relative to my height. Particularly so in the case of the Camargue, which effectively has square geometry on the 59cm frame(59cm effective top tube). Since the Camargue is intended for off road use I would suggest sizing down if you are between sizes. <br /><br />@Mark Holm<br /><br />We've been testing out big tires on the Camargue for a while. Once we get the Camargues in stock we'll start selling whichever tire that we like best.<br /><br />VeloOrangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06814029344407654254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-11044052115624533032014-01-30T10:09:03.276-05:002014-01-30T10:09:03.276-05:00A hint to VO: You currently don't offer any t...A hint to VO: You currently don't offer any tires that would be appropriate for the Camargue. I am running 622x50 Schwalbe Big Bens and am very pleased with them. On my rims, they actually measure about 45mm. the Big Ben is a nice, middle of the road, as it were, tire. It's not a slick, but it's not a knobby. It won't be tearing up grass or slinging mud, but it offers a bit of extra grip over a smooth tread. It runs well on pavement and on crushed stone and not too bad in mildly muddy or loose conditions.Mark Holmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-8183465749481057082014-01-30T08:22:57.565-05:002014-01-30T08:22:57.565-05:00Jan Heine in his magazine Bicycle Quarterly has do...Jan Heine in his magazine Bicycle Quarterly has done well-controlled tests, and found that wide, lower-pressure tires are indisputably not slower. Think about this: do race cars run skinny tires? Wider tires at reasonable pressure simply do not have higher rolling resistance. Jan has gone further to show that running at low pressure can even be faster, because of the road surface issues that Mark mentions. The science is in, fat tires are best for 90+% of the riding people do.Schorschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10086968194057010381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-86572397608911712832014-01-30T01:03:54.913-05:002014-01-30T01:03:54.913-05:00Mark Holm, I think your point is central to the di...Mark Holm, I think your point is central to the discussion about tire size. All things being equal (weight, pressure, casing, tread), two smooth tires of different sizes on a polished smooth surface will be similarly fast. However, on rough stuff, not only is a larger tire able to conform to the irregular surface, but the rider will feel more comfortable pushing the limits of the bike. While one can ride a lot of different surfaces on 35mm tires, that doesn't mean it is fast, efficient, safe, or fun. I choose wider tires for reasons that have nothing to do with roll-out testing. <br /><br />Even as many of us claim to be "non-racers", I find it interesting that these discussions focus so heavily on speed and efficiency, with little attention given to safety and fun. Before we discredit the entire genre of mountain bikes, 29" wheels, and even suspension, it is worth noting that much of that corner of cycling is focused on fun. For me, that is immeasurably important. That which I have learned from mountain biking translates to all the bikes I ride, both on and off pavement.<br /><br />Casey, thanks for this discussion. We are all looking forward to the Camargue. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-78501296349887864362014-01-29T17:15:37.921-05:002014-01-29T17:15:37.921-05:00I am a little confused concerning the sizing of th...I am a little confused concerning the sizing of the Camargue, Casey what is your PBH ? I have a height of 187 cm and a PBH of 87 cm. Comparing to the way my Surly LHT 60 cm was set up as well as the geometry charts, I believe I would have to get the Camargue in size 62 still you are higher than me and you ride a size 59 cm ??nalordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11856026972378422777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-66956620502370972012014-01-29T17:14:12.666-05:002014-01-29T17:14:12.666-05:00When I read that the Camargue would have 559 wheel...When I read that the Camargue would have 559 wheels on the smaller sizes and 622 on the larger, my thought was, "Finally!, another bike designer, besides Grant Petersen, is being sensible about wheel sizes!" It's a smart move. I hope you won't abandon it in the future.Mark Holmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-66900119766497138362014-01-29T16:42:55.707-05:002014-01-29T16:42:55.707-05:00Arguments about tire rolling resistance almost uni...Arguments about tire rolling resistance almost universally fail to consider the riding surface. On smooth, hard pavement, these nice theoretical and laboratory measurements may mean something. As soon as you ride on soft or rough surfaces, things change. Narrow, high pressure tires cost you a lot more energy when they sink into a slightly soft surface or bump you unmercifully on a rough surface. I ride rails-to-trails a lot, and crushed stone is a common surface. In the spring, or after rain or after a new layer of stone has been laid down, it's always a bit soft. After a lot of riders have been on it when it was soft, and then it bakes in the sun, it's rough. When I switched from 35mm (actual) to 45mm (actual, 50 nominal) width tires, that I run at lower pressure. I found that I expended less energy on soft and rough surfaces, and I can't tell the difference on hard smooth surfaces. I won't be going back to 35mm tires, and I pity those who ride even narrower tires on these trails.Mark Holmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-50168220003589822252014-01-29T15:49:02.104-05:002014-01-29T15:49:02.104-05:00I've brought up this notion of planned obsoles...I've brought up this notion of planned obsolescence a few times on The Retrogrouch Blog -- the numbers of people buying bicycles isn't growing enough to satisfy the big manufacturers -- so they have to keep finding ways to make existing customers think they need to either "upgrade" or add more bikes to their stables.<br /><br />I'm glad to see bikes offered with different wheel sizes depending on frame size -- it makes a lot more sense than choosing wheel size based on industry fashion trends. Any time I see "29er" mountain bikes with little 19 - 20 inch frames, I cringe. The proportions of 29er MTBs tend to look pretty "tortured" anyhow -- but with smaller frames, it seems completely pointless -- no reason for it other than the fashion that 29er bikes are popular (or have they already peaked?).<br /><br />About rolling resistance -- a lot of that has more to do with tire and casing construction more than wheel size. A 26" tire with a nice supple casing and a fine tread shouldn't roll appreciably differently than a similar tire on a 650b rim. Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-25796719283048937152014-01-29T15:29:50.981-05:002014-01-29T15:29:50.981-05:00@Casey - I ran my experiment comparing 60mm tires ...@Casey - I ran my experiment comparing 60mm tires @60psi with 28mm tires at 120psi. The fat tires were faster, even at half the pressure (which provides the same tension in the sidewall).<br /><br />Again, remember that I did the experiment. I have first-hand experience testing this on real live roads.dr2chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16320828055999939449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-38974796634772135372014-01-29T15:23:57.497-05:002014-01-29T15:23:57.497-05:00I'd like you guys to try out some Resist Nomad...I'd like you guys to try out some Resist Nomad 2.25 tires on the Camargue to see what you think. They can take pretty high pressure, and although high volume high pressure may seem to defeat the purpose of the volume, it sure feels nice, at least on pavement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-26734465709574150112014-01-29T14:52:21.673-05:002014-01-29T14:52:21.673-05:00On further reading, it looks like I should have be...On further reading, it looks like I should have been even more intentional with how I worded that statement. That statement is true in practice, because wider tires are run at a lower pressure. However, It is not true if you are comparing tires of different widths at the same pressure. <br /><br />-CaseyVeloOrangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06814029344407654254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-21564183264478241652014-01-29T14:33:15.706-05:002014-01-29T14:33:15.706-05:00@dr2chase
I tried to be intentional about how I w...@dr2chase<br /><br />I tried to be intentional about how I worded that statement. I based it off of a study I read a while ago in undergrad, which I can't find right now, but if I find it I'll be sure to post it here. I don't by any means intend to claim that larger tires are slower. Rolling resistance is only one of many factors, relating to tires, which affects performance and speed.<br /><br />I ride in Baltimore. With its prevalence of potholes, I'm much faster with larger tires.<br /><br />-CaseyVeloOrangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06814029344407654254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-49924225875988062702014-01-29T14:19:10.514-05:002014-01-29T14:19:10.514-05:00"While it is true that wider tires cause more..."While it is true that wider tires cause more rolling resistance"<br /><br />Except that's not true. I've measured in real-world conditions, and doubling the tire size and halving the pressure resulted in a faster commute to work (which surprised me, because I used to believe that skinny was faster) and a longer roll-out down a gentle hill. At high speeds wind resistance hurts big tires more, but that's not rolling resistance, and doesn't seem to matter enough at speeds below 12-ish mph (which is all I measured carefully).<br /><br />Some details <a href="http://dr2chase.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/big-vs-little-tire-resistance-test/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, along with some links in the blog entry and in the comments.<br /><br />And please, anyone who wishes to claim I'm wrong -- why do you think that? Did you measure performance, or are you relying on your subjective feel-o-meter? Did you just read it somewhere?dr2chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16320828055999939449noreply@blogger.com