tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post4797744131289130999..comments2024-03-18T10:19:55.782-04:00Comments on The Velo ORANGE Blog: What Are Lugs Worth? UPDATEDVelo Orangehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02835615331417822722noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-6793573265648217562008-05-29T09:54:00.000-04:002008-05-29T09:54:00.000-04:00Let's be realistic here. A $400 TIG frame with - ...Let's be realistic here. A $400 TIG frame with - at minimum - $500 of parts (unless you have them lying around or cannibalize from another bike) will be $900. The lugged version will be $1060-$1100. Is that 20% differential really going to make you more or less likely to leave it locked-up.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03205326636138161213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-21008087716121107172008-05-26T08:21:00.000-04:002008-05-26T08:21:00.000-04:00JM, that’s cool. Many of us are more squeamish abo...JM, that’s cool. Many of us are more squeamish about locking up our expensive bikes. Many buy a used beater so a potential loss is less that $100. Some, like yourself, are willing to risk locking up their 3,4,5k investments. There’s no right and wrong in this debate, nor is there anything wrong with TIG welded VO's. Nearly all bikes were lugged for over 100 years, but now there are many options.<BR/><BR/>EEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-28289741391509938402008-05-25T22:13:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:13:00.000-04:00ErikE asks:"JoelM, Do you lock your Riv outside a ...ErikE asks:<BR/><BR/>"JoelM, Do you lock your Riv outside a grocery store unattended for 20min on a regular basis? Or enjoy a relaxed meal in a café in the city while the bike is out of sight? I believe this is the vision Chris has in mind for this project."<BR/><BR/>Yes indeed, I do. Day in and day out. I do not own a car. The Hilsen is my primary mode of transportation. I live in Chicago, thus it is my City bike. The classic Parisien bikes which I believe Chris has in mind with the city bikes were lugged. My City bike is lugged. Let the VO City Bike be lugged, I say.<BR/><BR/>" If you want a higher end approach, he offers the filet brazed semi-custom."<BR/><BR/>That I know, thus my reference to Johnny Coast.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-2414676013829804552008-05-25T21:40:00.000-04:002008-05-25T21:40:00.000-04:00One of the things that impresses me most about Dut...One of the things that impresses me most about Dutch bikes: the vast majority of them don't come in, ever, not for the whole fifty years or so of their existence in gray North weather. I'd like to think that if I had a bike that I wouldn't mind leaving out in inclement weather, then that might help change the way I do things around town. I mean, I do commute and so some errands on bike, but I don't live on one the way every Dutch citizen does . . . <BR/><BR/>I don't know, I tend to feel that somewhere we've taken a wrong turn in bikeland and we admire the wrong things sometimes. <BR/><BR/>In other words: a tough powder coat? full brazeons? versatile geometry? . . . that might really make an impact on a few lives. <BR/><BR/>best,<BR/>michael whiteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-39839571427626987072008-05-25T14:42:00.000-04:002008-05-25T14:42:00.000-04:00JoelM, Do you lock your Riv outside a grocery stor...JoelM, Do you lock your Riv outside a grocery store unattended for 20min on a regular basis? Or enjoy a relaxed meal in a café in the city while the bike is out of sight? I believe this is the vision Chris has in mind for this project. If you want a higher end approach, he offers the filet brazed semi-custom.<BR/><BR/>“I say have it lugged and don't give a fig about using it for its stated purpose.” - I think Chris does; In this project, a lower cost will add to the product’s utility.<BR/><BR/>Erik EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-64671966173644163652008-05-25T12:56:00.000-04:002008-05-25T12:56:00.000-04:00Gosh Chris, what a great blog! Thanks for letting ...Gosh Chris, what a great blog! Thanks for letting the general bike public comment on your upcoming projects.<BR/><BR/>As far as your city bike frame, I'd vote for a TIG frame and a lugged fork, with a good looking head badge.<BR/><BR/>Press in a Tange headset maybe? A factory installed headset makes a DIY build a lot easier. <BR/><BR/>Could you get this done for $500 retail? I'm guessing I could do the whole build for $1000 using parts stocked on your website. What would you change to chase and face the BB before shipping? Let's make this a fun, easy basement build for a person that doesn't own $5000 worth of tools.<BR/><BR/>I'd also like to see you make a good on-line bike build worksheet, so customers print it out and plan a frame up build....hopefully with a VO frame and/or parts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-1862090287053677632008-05-25T12:19:00.000-04:002008-05-25T12:19:00.000-04:00I am surprised to read so many here would not want...I am surprised to read so many here would not want to use a somewhat mass produced lugged bike as their city bike or commuter.<BR/><BR/>This link should bring you to my Rivendell Homer Hilsen in its current form:<BR/><BR/>http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc238r2-joelmatthews0807.html<BR/><BR/>(I sold the front rack and swapped the triple TA chain link for a nice custom TA single with chain guard from Mariposa)<BR/><BR/>I ride this nearly every day in all weather in Chicago. It is a beautiful bike. That is why I bought it. It is also a wonderfully practical bike that is just a joy to ride. Most of my life is spent at work behind a desk, attending to my daily obligations, and sleeping. There is no good reason not to have the most pleasure possible when I ride.<BR/><BR/>Sure, if this were a Rivendell custom made by Goodrich (or in the case of VO, a Johnny Coast Rando) I would not want to use it the way I am. But it is a Waterford built Hilsen. VO will source the City Bike from a factory. It will be a nice, but not one of a kind bike. I say have it lugged and don't give a fig about using it for its stated purpose.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13317200743222648289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-3271681257879232062008-05-22T07:13:00.000-04:002008-05-22T07:13:00.000-04:00Adam,Your first paragraph misses the logic. Many o...Adam,<BR/><BR/>Your first paragraph misses the logic. Many of us will hesitate to lock up an expensive bike, that's all. I believe Chris will get more personal satisfaction from selling a city bike that will be used, and used often, for its intended purpose. A fancy high zoot city bike is a bit like a gold plated hammer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-13791963950089092862008-05-21T17:33:00.000-04:002008-05-21T17:33:00.000-04:00All you people arguing about whether TIG or lugged...All you people arguing about whether TIG or lugged, or big name brands, or new components, or whatever are more attractive to a theif don't understand city bike theft at all. <BR/><BR/>All of that is completely irrelevant to whether your bike is stolen or not -- the only thing that matters is whether it's locked better than the bike next to it. The person trying to steal your bike doesn't know anything about it beyond the fact that a) it's a bike, and b) within 20 minutes they can convert it into a hit of crack or meth. <BR/><BR/>I've seen custom Toei, Ebisu and Rivendell bikes all locked up on the street in San Francisco, to say nothing of the legions of Nagasawas, Samsons, Bridgestones, 3Renshos, etc...<BR/><BR/>Lugs v. TIG is an economic & aesthetic decision, period.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09718086258950643021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-52285667949392647052008-05-21T13:00:00.000-04:002008-05-21T13:00:00.000-04:00Lugged, TIG, Krazy-glued, whatever. Just give me t...Lugged, TIG, Krazy-glued, whatever. <BR/><BR/>Just give me the option of racks built specifically for the bike. Meaning no thin, flat piece of metal as the main attachment points between the frame and rack. No clamp-on racks, obviously. weakest link in the chain...<BR/><BR/>The screws should pass through a point in the rack, and screw directly into the frame. No slop, no flex, and if properly built, perfectly even and mighty strong.<BR/><BR/>I'm lucky enough to own an olde (c. 1971) Mariposa rando bike with a matching rear pannier/platform rack. The rack itself is elegant and perfect for its intended purpose, which is light touring. Not so useful for carting around heavy groceries; Too much weight in the back, and the tail wags the dog. Also, the platform in back is too narrow and slippery to carry much at all. <BR/><BR/>My ideal city bike would have a wide platform rack and lowriders up front. A smaller pannier/platform rack in the back. Basically, enough carrying capacity for a flat of beer, groceries, bike tools, a lock, and some odds and ends. Maybe overkill - sounds more like a full touring bike rather than a city bike, but I'd rather be able to carry more than less. <BR/><BR/>Nice affordable pannier bags would be great as well. Waxed cotton or cordura bags sans leather that actually fit the racks to which they're mounted... what else do you need?<BR/><BR/>So, as to the price, the difference between lugged and TIG will be far less if we see the bike as a bike, and not as a bare frame. <BR/><BR/>I think if option packages were offered, almost everyone would go for them, especially if the components were VO-designed and built specifically for the city bike. Fenders, lights, racks, bags or baskets, chainguard... gimme gimme. Probably a wheelset as well, w. a Schmidt dyno and a mountain hub in back. Hell, why not build me a whole bike, Chris?<BR/><BR/>Lastly, I'm a little disturbed by Porteur bars, but I've not much experience with them, apart from riding some old cruisers around. Verry tilty and dicey in corners or climbing. Having my hands that far back of the head tube seems wrong. I'd probably do well to hop aboard a Singer city bike and ride it for a few weeks. Anybody got an extra?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-51578497685180362392008-05-21T12:45:00.000-04:002008-05-21T12:45:00.000-04:00I feel kind of dumb asking this question, but I'm ...I feel kind of dumb asking this question, but I'm not a bike historian and having never been to France I'm not particularly familiar with French porteurs, but does this frame geometry result in the "open heart" or "sit up and beg" riding style of the classic Dutch and English bikes? If so, sign me up for whichever way you want to build it. If I <I>have</I> to vote, I'll say tig, because I wouldn't mind saving a couple hundred bucks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-8026223543889394182008-05-21T12:28:00.000-04:002008-05-21T12:28:00.000-04:00"The aesthetics of craigslist and REI are at this ..."The aesthetics of craigslist and REI are at this point PURPOSELY minimalist"<BR/><BR/>REI minimalist? Are you joking? The homepage has close to 100 links on it. It's not "PURPOSELY minimalist" as you claim. I know this for a fact because I used to work at REI HQ in Kent and knew many of the designers and PMs. Most of them complained about the site being too cluttered and busy. Like Amazon, it's a classic example of design by committee - every team has to have a say and get their representation on the home page and the result is a pretty cluttered (though functional) page. Beyond their site, REI's hangtags, signage, end caps, and other visual identity elements are not exactly in the minimalist genre by any stretch of the imagination.<BR/><BR/>Saying aesthetics are EVERYTHING to a brand ignores so many other aspects that go into branding. Are they a component of branding? Absolutely! Can great design play a major part in defining a brand? Definitely. However, if aesthetics were all that counted branding would be solely the realm of designers. However, it's not and there's a reason for that!Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10767743759129493752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-235444308681436992008-05-21T11:13:00.000-04:002008-05-21T11:13:00.000-04:00I vote for TIG - $400 for a frame like this is no ...I vote for TIG - $400 for a frame like this is no brainer, I'd snap one up in a second. Lugs are nice, but like other people said, for a city bike that's going to be locked up somewhere I'd like something that looks functional and rides great.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906177349060922083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-56552531459419625502008-05-20T22:39:00.000-04:002008-05-20T22:39:00.000-04:00two head lugs and TIG the rest. split the price di...two head lugs and TIG the rest. split the price difference ;-)<BR/>by the way, does anyone have some pictures of fillet-brazed city bikes or constructeur-type frames? I'm itching to melt and file some more brass!yankee_dollarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01440582087070295095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-27428072110792556792008-05-20T20:52:00.000-04:002008-05-20T20:52:00.000-04:00RE: C""aesthetics are EVERYTHING when building a b...RE: C<BR/><BR/>""aesthetics are EVERYTHING when building a brand."<BR/><BR/>No, and I work with a few dozen branding professionals who would laugh at that statement! Branding is about a whole lot more than just aesthetics and design. In fact at the agency I work for many of our branding assignments actually have no visual design component to them at all. Great design can help build a brand but it is absolutely NOT the only part of a great brand. If you doubt this look at REI. REI will never win any design awards yet they have an enormously powerful brand that most companies would kill for. Same holds true for Craigslist"<BR/><BR/>C... my friend... In fact you've just proved my point. The aesthetics of craigslist and REI are at this point PURPOSELY minimalist and directly serve the brand. In Craigslist case it's fair to say they define it. REI is a co-op and part of their branding is to prevent you from thinking they are just like all the other big box sports retailers. Craigslist calls their practice "unbranding" and it is aimed at seeming low budget and non-commercial. You are absolutely mistaken if you think those were not conscious branding choices or that their brand exists in spite of aesthetics.<BR/><BR/>Regardless of what you (in your rather rude post I must say) think or practice at your firm, aesthetics are everything when it comes to a brand. Good or bad, fancy or plain, it absolutely defines your brand. Sure there are other factors, if it looks great and it sucks, no one will use it. It has to have both. But if you want it to look plain, or just like all the other TIG bikes on the market, then it will need to be that way because Chris decides that his target market will appreciate that aesthetic. Because like it or not we are visual creatures. If it doesn't look the way people want they won't get past that to its function.K Matthiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10302994067650991669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-73603450821679773912008-05-20T11:32:00.000-04:002008-05-20T11:32:00.000-04:00"I agree with Gunnar, don't cheapen the brand. Fro..."I agree with Gunnar, don't cheapen the brand. From a business standpoint, a lower price point is putting VO in direct competition with larger, mass market producers and I don't see this market segment as where you can compete successfully."<BR/><BR/>There are two flaws with this statement:<BR/>1) Lower prices do not in and of themselves cheapen a brand. Several brands have downscaled their pricing and not seen a deterioration of brand equity. <BR/>2) How would the VO frame face competition from mass market producers? Show me one frame that is in mass production and offers the details Chris is proposing. All other mass market city bikes do not use 650b wheels nor do they feature geometry optimized for front loading. Only one that comes close is the Kogswell.Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10767743759129493752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-73939619900664145162008-05-19T17:35:00.000-04:002008-05-19T17:35:00.000-04:00you could always have a a tig'd frame sold under a...you could always have a a tig'd frame sold under a new brandname. personally i think that lugs are great but i would be very interested in a solid, well thought out and affordable frameset as well. just make sure the fork looks nice and have a decent headbadge and decals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-25779374605231824702008-05-19T16:06:00.000-04:002008-05-19T16:06:00.000-04:00For what it is worth, check out Rawland at www.raw...For what it is worth, check out Rawland at www.rawlandcycles.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-81392962926782003992008-05-19T11:58:00.000-04:002008-05-19T11:58:00.000-04:00I agree with Gunnar, don't cheapen the brand. Fro...I agree with Gunnar, don't cheapen the brand. From a business standpoint, a lower price point is putting VO in direct competition with larger, mass market producers and I don't see this market segment as where you can compete successfully. I don't see this as a lug versus non-lug issue so much as an end product price point issue. The lower you go in price the greater the competition you will face.<BR/><BR/>For under a $800 you can get a Breezer Villager. For everything the Breezer is not from a style standpoint, it is a well put together package suitable for nearly everyone's city biking needs. There's no point in taking on this sort of product.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00267394210839473090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-28370985535130241792008-05-18T01:17:00.000-04:002008-05-18T01:17:00.000-04:00The issue with lugs for me in a city bike is not t...The issue with lugs for me in a city bike is not that a thief might be attracted to the lugs. Most bike thieves are probably looking for recognizable brands and late model components, anyway. My issue is that I don't want to have the extra investment of lugs locked to the parking meter. I don't need the exposure. My heart will sink if my P/R is ever stolen but it would sink even lower if it was a lugged Rivendell. Not to say that the Rivendell would even be a better bike for my purposes, even if better looking. But the bottom line for me is the risk and the feeling of having it stolen, both heartwise and pocketbook-wise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-41899765100766982142008-05-17T23:52:00.000-04:002008-05-17T23:52:00.000-04:00Really what it comes down to is how many people ar...Really what it comes down to is how many people are going to buy something else because the bike is tigged or lugged. <BR/><BR/>$600 might put it out of the price range of some, so maybe you'll lose them with lugs.<BR/><BR/>However, considering the amount of tigged frames available, I think you'll gain more from the people looking for lugs.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07434219818361831871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-20780742446502540352008-05-17T23:09:00.000-04:002008-05-17T23:09:00.000-04:00Ok, while I love lugged frames, it is all I own, I...Ok, while I love lugged frames, it is all I own, I'll argue with the folks that claim lugged frames are stronger than tig welded frames. Exhibit A is the U.S. Navy Subsafe program. After the USS Thresher was lost in in 1963, the Navy removed silver brazed (i.e, lugged) sea water systems from submarines to welded systems, as this was demonstrated to be stronger, more reliable. Can't argue with that. That being said, I love lugs, not having to rely upon them a quarter mile underwater and a thousand miles from land.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-54126421488512607732008-05-17T22:33:00.000-04:002008-05-17T22:33:00.000-04:009:14 anonyme,I think the purpose of this city bike...9:14 anonyme,<BR/>I think the purpose of this city bike is for it to be a city bike, not a porteur, a randonneur, a race bike, or a mountain bike. The idea is that you can go out and buy a city bike frame where the fenders fit perfectly and the chainguard mounts properly and it handles the way it should be.<BR/>All-rounders are all well and good, but resolved production bikes are incredibly rare, and I think that's the gap Chris is trying to fill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-37260614739940192842008-05-17T20:29:00.000-04:002008-05-17T20:29:00.000-04:00PLEASE NO 650B. I WOULDNT RIDE THIS WHEELSIZE EVEN...<B>PLEASE NO 650B. I WOULDNT RIDE THIS WHEELSIZE EVEN IF IT WAS FREE.</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-77101932149473515862008-05-17T18:38:00.000-04:002008-05-17T18:38:00.000-04:00The answer to "why not do both?' is probably inven...The answer to "why not do both?' is probably inventory, either in a warehouse or in the pipeline. Somebody (Chris) is going to have a lot of capital tied up in bicycle frames. Unless they are all made to order, too much inventory can eat you alive.Gunnar Berghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17451985764040900726noreply@blogger.com