tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post3018607042305709670..comments2024-03-18T10:19:55.782-04:00Comments on The Velo ORANGE Blog: That Frame Doesn't Fit!Velo Orangehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02835615331417822722noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-39627365642370375782015-06-01T22:07:51.476-04:002015-06-01T22:07:51.476-04:00I don't think I'm freakishly proportioned ...I don't think I'm freakishly proportioned in any way, but I and I suspect many others will find your sizing ideas questionable. I've been riding the same fit for 40 years, including 6 to 7 cm bar drop from saddle height, 7cm saddle setback, tip of saddle to center of bars at 57 to 58 cm- all done on frames with 56 or 57 cm top tubes with 12 or 13 cm stems. I can generally make just about any frame from 56 to 60 cm seat tube C-T work for me, and get all of my fit dimensions perfect with proper setup- so your thoughts on 15mm to 30mm saddle setback and an 80mm to 110mm stem just aren't going to work for some folks- unless they like being all 'scrunched up'or unless they are on the far end of the normal distribution having shorter arms and/or torsos. I say forget about the $200 or more 'pro' bike fit, and the $20,000 computerized bike fitting devices. Just pull out your copy of the old Greg Lemond book with its sizing charts, and put a coffee table book in your crotch to size yourself- then go out and ride a lot. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-16525778271689218762011-11-01T03:22:35.862-04:002011-11-01T03:22:35.862-04:00im so confused about frame sizing.. im relatively ...im so confused about frame sizing.. im relatively new to the whole fixed gear/road bike scene so idk if im riding the correct frame size or not. i am 5'10 with normal proportions and i just recently bought a 54cm sized bike. i feel fine on the bike and i have about 1 and a half inches of clearance from the top of the frame to my crotch. but ive seen shorter people on bigger frames! the bike shop owners recommended the 54cm and my friends say to get a bigger frame.. what do y'all think?Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04516684815360402287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-8490689712645891432010-09-20T09:47:26.840-04:002010-09-20T09:47:26.840-04:00Too long a stem put too much weight over the front...Too long a stem put too much weight over the front wheel It's the weight distribution, not the stem itself that matters. Sports car designers try for 50/50 weight distribution because too much weight over the front or rear will degrade handling. It's the same principle on a bike.Le Cagotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-35850512437686991402010-09-19T16:49:14.960-04:002010-09-19T16:49:14.960-04:00I disagree about longer stems and their affecting ...I disagree about longer stems and their affecting handling. <br />If using an Albatross bar for example, a longer stem is needed than for a drop bar. The higher the bars, the closer the bars come to the rider. <br /><br />Many people ride stems too short.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-6787703978077694122010-07-08T08:15:48.418-04:002010-07-08T08:15:48.418-04:00IMHO, the bike illustrated at the top of this post...IMHO, the bike illustrated at the top of this post does not fit the rider properly, whether the bars and seat can be adjusted to be in the correct place or not. Many bikes used to be sold like this is the UK in the 1980s and before, but there are better ways to fit short riders, i.e., compact frames.<br /><br />I would agree that many people ride bikes that do not fit them, and also that many frames have seat angles that are too steep. However, there are virtually no frames which vary by more than 1/2 degree from the norm (whatever that is assumed to be). Steep seat angles are easy to find, but <73 or 73.5 degrees on other than large frames is uncommon.<br /><br />While this is so, seatposts with lots of offset will be essential for many of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-12869186441527968062010-07-05T17:16:58.556-04:002010-07-05T17:16:58.556-04:00I become suspicious of fitting advice the minute t...I become suspicious of fitting advice the minute that "spinning" is mentioned.<br /><br />Not that I plug along at low cadences, but I like to sit well back. I didn't convince myself of anything, and I've had 40 years of road riding to experiment with. I have long thighs for my height, and I like to use them. I can go farther and longer powering the pedals at a moderate cadence than I can by spinning. When I position myself by modern racing-influenced standards, it just doesn't work for me. So, internet-based advice be darned, I sit well-back, on a long bike, with my handlebars up near saddle level. I have deep drops for when I need to get low. To each his own.Petenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-78073383329784580462010-06-25T13:09:05.282-04:002010-06-25T13:09:05.282-04:00Anonymous said...
Phil Brown said:
My pre...Anonymous said...<br /><br /> Phil Brown said:<br /><br /> My previous post snipped...<br /><br /> Phil:<br /><br /> That sizing sounds right on (to me, anyways) for your body dimensions. I am 6' 2" with a 33" inseam and probably a 'regular(?)' torso for my height, and I tend to ride about a 62/59, depending on BB height, seat tube angle, and drop....<br /><br /><br />I'm an inch taller and with one inch shorter legs and that puts me right outside of industry sizing. In this case 2 inches matters because it's right at the top of the sizing scale. <br />To perhaps further the discussion the human body will adapt to a slightly "incorrect" position pretty readily. Lots of people, especially if they mostly ride on the tops as may riders do today with brifters will feel OK on a slightly short bike.<br />It's an art, not a science.<br />Phil Brownphilcycleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07037641086503534960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-20166574329171764812010-06-24T18:10:49.427-04:002010-06-24T18:10:49.427-04:00I like "framebuilders" who are legends i...I like "framebuilders" who are legends in their own minds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-87986058309732258822010-06-24T17:48:53.298-04:002010-06-24T17:48:53.298-04:00"The (mostly anonymous) posters breaking bad ..."The (mostly anonymous) posters breaking bad on Chris' theory appear to be missing a crucial point.<br /><br />VO is selling bicycles.<br /><br />Individual customers may ultimately disagree with what V-O believes is a good fit.<br /><br />Without some detailed information on V-O's fit philosphy, you may as well just throw a dart at the size choice."<br /><br />I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. I love what VO does, but I don't really care how they think a bike should fit me. Same as I don't really care what GP thinks about fit or anyone else. After 30+ years of cycling, I've got a pretty good idea of what works for me. It's great to see other opinions, but other than seeing what the latest thoughts on fitting are, I don't really put much stake in how other people think I should sit on my bike. <br /><br />One person's "that doesn't fit!" is another person's "Just right."<br /><br />According to current schools of thought, my frame is too big, according to others, too small. Meh. I'll ride what I like. <br /><br />It ain't rocket science. <br /><br />Not exactly anonymous, <br /><br />BrianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-40834610389293413432010-06-24T11:15:03.069-04:002010-06-24T11:15:03.069-04:00The (mostly anonymous) posters breaking bad on Chr...The (mostly anonymous) posters breaking bad on Chris' theory appear to be missing a crucial point. <br /><br />VO is selling bicycles. <br /><br />Individual customers may ultimately disagree with what V-O believes is a good fit. <br /><br />Without some detailed information on V-O's fit philosphy, you may as well just throw a dart at the size choice.Joelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-39563068879880662672010-06-23T21:54:05.391-04:002010-06-23T21:54:05.391-04:00Phil Brown said:
"Since the 6 footers are ch...Phil Brown said:<br /><br />"Since the 6 footers are chiming in I will too on for all us 98th percentile types.<br />One reason I started making frames was that I am 6'3" with short-32" inseam legs-and a long torso. For years I rode a Colnago with-for Colnago-a giant top tube of 60cm and a 13cm stem. When I started making my own I settled on 61x61 which is about the longest frame a normally sized tube set will make. Any longer and you have to use a piece of 4130 for the top tube.<br />And I like a conventionally styled frame, parallel top tube, no extended head tube, just the thing for an old mossback like me.<br />You may look me up at Phil Brown Cycles.<br />Phil Brown<br /><br />6/23/10 12:17 PM"<br /><br />Phil:<br /><br />That sizing sounds right on (to me, anyways) for your body dimensions. I am 6' 2" with a 33" inseam and probably a 'regular(?)' torso for my height, and I tend to ride about a 62/59, depending on BB height, seat tube angle, and drop....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-54736992189413774342010-06-23T12:17:30.169-04:002010-06-23T12:17:30.169-04:00Since the 6 footers are chiming in I will too on f...Since the 6 footers are chiming in I will too on for all us 98th percentile types.<br />One reason I started making frames was that I am 6'3" with short-32" inseam legs-and a long torso. For years I rode a Colnago with-for Colnago-a giant top tube of 60cm and a 13cm stem. When I started making my own I settled on 61x61 which is about the longest frame a normally sized tube set will make. Any longer and you have to use a piece of 4130 for the top tube.<br />And I like a conventionally styled frame, parallel top tube, no extended head tube, just the thing for an old mossback like me.<br />You may look me up at Phil Brown Cycles.<br />Phil Browmphilcycleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07037641086503534960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-91557842172327816892010-06-23T11:33:24.772-04:002010-06-23T11:33:24.772-04:00By your criteria my beloved Super Course isn't...By your criteria my beloved Super Course isn't close to a 'proper' fit, but you'd be wrong. After years of experimenting I've come to realize bicycle fit is such a personal thing that anyone who offers advice on how much seat post should be exposed or how much extension my stem should have is just clueless. Everyone is different, bike frames basically get you in the ball park, seatposts and stems come with different setbacks and extensions for a reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-66600748933716571482010-06-23T11:14:37.145-04:002010-06-23T11:14:37.145-04:00everyone has a fit theory.everyone has a fit theory.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-82141971574859970242010-06-23T09:01:52.513-04:002010-06-23T09:01:52.513-04:00keithwalker wrote:
"What a pandora's box...keithwalker wrote:<br /><br />"What a pandora's box you opened.<br />imo, conventional wisdom on frame sizing runs out of steam for people over 6 feet tall.<br /><br />The same extends to crank length. Why you can not readily buy a bike with a crank over 175mm defies logic."<br /><br />I agree with your first paragraph, but let me tell you about 180mm cranks. I am 6'4" and when I ran across a used 180mm crankset I happily went for it after reading so much about longer cranks for long-legged people. I am pretty disappointed with them and will go back to 170mm soon (or at least 175mm). When I went from 170 to 180 I was stunned by the difference one little centimeter makes. It is almost impossible to spin those cranks fast! The difference in cadence is incredible. Unfortunately, I don't have a computer on that bike (it's a city commuter/errands bike) so I don't have numbers to back this up, but it definitely doesn't feel right.patates friteshttp://www.patates.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-33532636015350502622010-06-23T01:11:43.351-04:002010-06-23T01:11:43.351-04:00Our positions on a bike evolve to fit our personal...Our positions on a bike evolve to fit our personal needs, and then we try to apply that position to different bikes with stems, saddle setback, etc.<br /><br />Wouldn't it be enlightening to ride 3 or 4 identical bikes in different frame sizes, with each adjusted for your favored riding position?Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-420827329909799562010-06-22T23:50:27.216-04:002010-06-22T23:50:27.216-04:00keithwwalker said:
"What a pandora's box...keithwwalker said:<br /><br />"What a pandora's box you opened.<br />imo, conventional wisdom on frame sizing runs out of steam for people over 6 feet tall.<br /><br />The same extends to crank length. Why you can not readily buy a bike with a crank over 175mm defies logic."<br /><br /><br />Which conventional wisdom, though? There's the rub. 1950s? 1970s? 1990s? Current?<br /><br />I'm not sure there are very many folks that really need road cranks longer than 175. I have a friend that is 6'5" (is strong like bull...) and he does tend to use 180s, but that's what, 99th percentile American male height? In my shop, I get average-sized male customers asking for 185 mm cranks, or for 160 mm ones. Same size person in both cases!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-17392574801728284522010-06-22T22:54:59.818-04:002010-06-22T22:54:59.818-04:00To add to the confusion, fit is a moving target al...To add to the confusion, fit is a moving target also. When i started road riding I felt quite awkward coming from a flat-bar background. I had the shop flip the stem up, now I flipped it back down after a few months.<br /><br />I hope your discussion will be based more about cause and effect of the various frame measurements than which size fits whom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-36432648914972125772010-06-22T21:12:23.179-04:002010-06-22T21:12:23.179-04:00The problem about bike fit is that it isn't an...The problem about bike fit is that it isn't an event but a process. If it isn't right at first you-or the shop owner-has to keep trying and change parts to make it work.<br />Sadly it takes time and money and few shops or, more important, customers, want to make the effort.<br />By the time a rider gets to a frame builder he's usually got his fit problems worked out and knows what works or doesn't work.<br />Phil Brownphilcycleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07037641086503534960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-48077296692663225342010-06-22T20:38:59.328-04:002010-06-22T20:38:59.328-04:00What most people seem to miss regarding bike fit i...What most people seem to miss regarding bike fit is one simple and undeniable fact ... we all have different bodies. Not just in arm/leg/torso dimensions, but also in weight distribution. Most classic AND modern bike fit methods are really meant for athletic builds - people who are flexible and fit. They don't necessarily work for those who aren't built like a "cyclist". A very slender person with little upper body mass is going to feel very different than a person with a great deal of upper body mass (muscle or otherwise) on the same bike, even though they may have the same physical dimensions. I may be wrong here, but I believe it is very important to achieve a "balanced" position for the rider, which may mean a very different bar height, stem length, seatpost setback, and so on, to bring the weight distribution of the rider and bike into proper place. If the bike fit methods also included placing the front and rear wheels over a pair of scales to measure weight distribution, we might just have a more useful process for a wider variety of body types.<br /><br />All that aside, I agree that we should just shut up and ride ... but I don't believe it should be uncomfortable and painful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-52936023198887144252010-06-22T18:23:28.642-04:002010-06-22T18:23:28.642-04:00Agreed. I am over 6 foot and cobbled together the ...Agreed. I am over 6 foot and cobbled together the right parts to fit me. Actually, if you are really tall or really short, you have to just work stuff out. Some of us are all legs, others all torso. I love all my old tall steel frames even if some flex a little. Still ride OK.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00404755494377194285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-24291958590595181682010-06-22T16:51:23.485-04:002010-06-22T16:51:23.485-04:00What a pandora's box you opened.
imo, conventi...What a pandora's box you opened.<br />imo, conventional wisdom on frame sizing runs out of steam for people over 6 feet tall.<br /><br />The same extends to crank length. Why you can not readily buy a bike with a crank over 175mm defies logic.keithwwalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11808096138218041326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-13579441841481039882010-06-22T15:12:15.407-04:002010-06-22T15:12:15.407-04:00Frame fit is about “good-enough fit” not “perfect ...Frame fit is about “good-enough fit” not “perfect fit.” Lots of ways of fitting a bike will work well. A body changes over time (because of use, age, and injury), flexibility varies among riders at all levels, and the what one is used to riding makes a huge difference--not to mention the various types of riding styles and conditions. That's why different fit methods, models, and schools have been successful over the years even though they don’t agree with each other. <br />My method is to follow the school of thought on fit that focuses on your type of riding and then just ride, ride, ride. Make adjustments as needed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-78163414074320755732010-06-22T14:36:07.623-04:002010-06-22T14:36:07.623-04:00I cannot agree more that a large number of people ...I cannot agree more that a large number of people are riding bicycles that fit poorly.<br /><br />Some people seem to be the Emperor in new clothes. Probably best to let them be?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-81536262778515891552010-06-22T14:13:24.740-04:002010-06-22T14:13:24.740-04:00I'm looking forward to your simplified frame f...I'm looking forward to your simplified frame fit guidelines. I hope it helps reduce the sales of snake oil custom fittings. There are several simple sets guidelines that give a good starting point for fit, and fine tuning is always a matter of personal preference, experience, and conditioning. The more scientific a fitting appears the more it should be avoided.Reynolds 531noreply@blogger.com