tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post1947650794374090741..comments2024-03-18T10:19:55.782-04:00Comments on The Velo ORANGE Blog: Wheels and NAHBSVelo Orangehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02835615331417822722noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-1541809531611584512009-03-10T17:36:00.000-04:002009-03-10T17:36:00.000-04:00La Cagot said : " Surly frames are not made for fe...La Cagot said : " Surly frames are not made for fenders." <BR/><BR/>http://www.flickr.com/photos/ecovelo/2630193092/in/set-72157611470108738/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-70885981489667067992009-03-06T19:17:00.001-05:002009-03-06T19:17:00.001-05:00Hi. Is there a reason Sturmey is misspelled here ...Hi. Is there a reason Sturmey is misspelled here and at the sales site?Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16052829324146282574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-75502379322731085812009-03-06T19:17:00.000-05:002009-03-06T19:17:00.000-05:00It my humble belief that wheel building is more of...It my humble belief that wheel building is more of an art than a science ( once the spoke calculations are determined and reliable parts are selected) . <BR/><BR/> you would be surprised how many 'good' shops can't true a wheel. A truly great bike mechanic and/or wheel builder is hard to find and surely not in it for the money.<BR/><BR/> I think the CR 18 with the 105 hubs/dt spokes is a great set of products from which to create a pretty good piece o' art. That being said, TOM aka Mr Snarky, I would not want to return something with so much potential greatness, I just want it to be acceptable--can you dig it ? <BR/><BR/> And the 36 spoke count thing---this in and of itself is a sign of potential perfection <BR/><BR/>BTW.. Someone told me American Classic Hurricanes don't suck --is this true ? The about 3 or for times the price of your product # S105WS. <BR/><BR/> I would rather have 3 sets of VO's S105WS<BR/><BR/> anonymous in AnnapolisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-37144257471879284852009-03-06T16:51:00.000-05:002009-03-06T16:51:00.000-05:00The upcharge for butted over straight gauge is aro...The upcharge for butted over straight gauge is around 30% per wheelset. Much more than 5 percent. <BR/><BR/>CR18's and dyno or IG hubs are not exactly a lightweight setup. The weigh savings is approx 1 gram per spoke. 32g per wheel- its a little over 1 ounce. <BR/><BR/>Proven long term durability of the individual parts give you an idea of how the wheel will fare.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01015305191743399671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-27539409236670686802009-03-06T16:21:00.000-05:002009-03-06T16:21:00.000-05:00Very well, but I'd like to just offer another pers...Very well, but I'd like to just offer another perspective:<BR/><BR/>Wheels are perhaps the only parts of a bicycle where <I>unnecessary</I> weight affects the enjoyability of cycling.<BR/><BR/>I'm not talking about performance.<BR/><BR/>A heavy yet comfortable saddle will make cycling more enjoyable. A frame not too small for you (ie heavier) will make cycling more enjoyable. Handlebars that suit your wrists and riding style will be more enjoyable, regardless of weight. A wheel that accelerates and decellerates quickly will make the acual handling of a bike more enjoyable.<BR/><BR/>This is why I'm not ashamed to always go for kevlar-beaded quality tires, butted spokes and the lighest rims that are strong <I>enough</I>. Hub weight, on the other hand, does not concern me, nor do the weights of bars, stems, fenders or bottle cages. Nor will I generally spend money to colour coordinate or be period correct.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-14530249383881287402009-03-06T15:21:00.000-05:002009-03-06T15:21:00.000-05:00JB has also said that modern spokes have much bett...JB has also said that modern spokes have much better fatigue characteristics than when he wrote that. Which exactly corresponds with your observations.<BR/><BR/>The amount of stress relief in each spoke elbow or thread doesn't necessarily have to be the same (I'm not sure that's what you meant by perfectly stress-relieved). As long as the internal stress in any given elbow is lowered far enough away from the yield stress, it won't fail from cyclic unloading and reloading. A stress-relieved 2mm spoke will be as "durable" as a butted spoke from the same manufacturer. Spoke count and type of rim are bigger factors in wheel strength.<BR/>In the end, it boils down exactly to what Chris said. Butted, straight, everything else being equal I'll take the cheaper ones.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11777627222904903651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-17217705885055352502009-03-06T15:08:00.000-05:002009-03-06T15:08:00.000-05:00"The straight gauge spokes are much less expensive..."The straight gauge spokes are much less expensive and the advantages of butted spokes are relatively small."<BR/><BR/> This is a well reasoned, believable, simple explanation. I am not an engineer, nor do I have a master's level ability to build a wheel ( or even true it properly for that matter) . <BR/><BR/> I will buy my next wheelset from you, but not from that "Tom" ( the one I called 'Mr. Snarky') guy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-52268342561545131852009-03-06T14:47:00.000-05:002009-03-06T14:47:00.000-05:00Why use SA hubs? Is it because the competition alr...Why use SA hubs? Is it because the competition already sells factory built wheels with sram and shimano gear hubs? I've not read anything about the SA 8 in european cycling publications that would make me want to buy one. And their new shifters are nasty. <BR/>How about a shimano eight speed with a silver jtek thumb shifter?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-35978591766621707512009-03-06T13:48:00.000-05:002009-03-06T13:48:00.000-05:00I'm trying very hard to resist the impulse of gett...I'm trying very hard to resist the impulse of getting the last word on this, but I can´t help quoting Brandt himself:<BR/><BR/>"However, the most valuable contribution of swaging is that peak stresses are absorbed in the straight midsection rather than concentrated in the threads and elbow, thereby substantially reducing fatigue failures."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps a perfectly tensioned (which presupposes a perfect rim) and perfectly stress-relieved wheel will not suffer fatigue, but not all wheels are built perfectly, and butted spokes give wider margins.<BR/><BR/>That said - I have never had a modern stainless spoke break on me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-24443193424945333932009-03-06T10:49:00.000-05:002009-03-06T10:49:00.000-05:00The short answer is that properly installed, defec...The short answer is that properly installed, defect-free spokes won't fail from cyclic fatigue.<BR/><BR/>The load (your weight) on a wheel only unloads spokes, so a spoke will only fail from cyclic fatigue when it's already near its yield stress. If that's happening at the elbow its probably because the spoke (or entire wheel) was not stress relieved when the wheel was built, leaving that area with high residual stress from when it was manufactured. And if that's the case, the spoke is going to break there whether or not the rest of the spoke is butted.<BR/><BR/>If Jobst Brandt can use the same straight gauge spokes for 200,000 miles, they're good enough for me.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11777627222904903651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-31791459062940497342009-03-06T10:22:00.000-05:002009-03-06T10:22:00.000-05:00Durability is the main advantage of butted spokes....Durability is the main advantage of butted spokes. The spokes will not suffer the same fatigue at the elbows, where they usually break. The elasticity will also distribute loads to a greater number of spokes.<BR/><BR/>Sounds "heavy duty" to me.<BR/><BR/>Weight and aerodynamics are secondary benefits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-48726777054282603132009-03-06T10:11:00.000-05:002009-03-06T10:11:00.000-05:00Straight gauge spokes with triple wall rims, inter...Straight gauge spokes with triple wall rims, internal gear hubs and dyno hubs seems logical to me:<BR/><BR/>-Straight gauge spokes are stronger than butted. If a spoke is going to stretch in the butted section, its probably going just go ahead and break. Not butting also makes the spoke lots more resistant to torsion and the resultant shearing stress.<BR/><BR/>-Internal gears/dynos are usually used in sort of "heavy duty" use where people don't care about shaving a few grams in favor of utility. Commuting (IGHs) or randoneurring or touring.<BR/><BR/>I mean, if you're going to add the weight of an IGH or a hub dynamo, whats another ounce (doubt its even near an oz) of spoke weight?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11777627222904903651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-85979120631203902372009-03-06T09:28:00.000-05:002009-03-06T09:28:00.000-05:00I think wheels is the worst place to be cheap, but...I think wheels is the worst place to be cheap, but more importantly: <BR/><BR/>The 105 or dynohubs are sufficiently extravagant to appear mismatched to straight-gauge spokes - however small the advantage of butted?<BR/><BR/>Is the price difference significant when seen as a complete wheel with a $100 dynohub? My admittedly uninformed guess is the difference does not exceed 5%, labor included.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-9813566330392235682009-03-06T09:01:00.000-05:002009-03-06T09:01:00.000-05:00I always thought that the advantage of butted spok...I always thought that the advantage of butted spokes is that they tend to stretch at the thinnest section rather than at the threads or elbows. According to this theory, a double-butted spoke is lighter _and_ more durable than a straight-gauge spoke of the same "end-gauge".<BR/><BR/>Sheldon's position can be found here: <BR/><BR/>http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes<BR/><BR/>although I'm not sure he has it quite right, since he describes sharp "pulling" stresses, when the sharp local loads actually result in detensioning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-59436325697405709412009-03-06T08:38:00.000-05:002009-03-06T08:38:00.000-05:00@ Chris,The advantage of butted is that they can b...@ Chris,<BR/><BR/>The advantage of butted is that they can be lighter for the same strength, correct?<BR/><BR/>(PS - Most people claim stronger for the same weight, however with these being, more or less, budget friendly wheels the reverse statement is more beneficial to understand why straight gauge is perfect fine in this application).Josh Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03969306131489466113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-35433756931101531912009-03-06T06:30:00.000-05:002009-03-06T06:30:00.000-05:00The straight gauge spokes are much less expensive ...The straight gauge spokes are much less expensive and the advantages of butted spokes are relatively small.Velo Orangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02835615331417822722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-14846769571823106872009-03-06T04:16:00.000-05:002009-03-06T04:16:00.000-05:00Is there a particular reason these wheels are buil...Is there a particular reason these wheels are built with straight-gauge spokes?<BR/><BR/>DISCLAIMER: this is not in any way or form intended as a snarky question and the poster will not claim responsibility for it being percieved as such.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-90751387126131667112009-03-05T18:01:00.000-05:002009-03-05T18:01:00.000-05:00Tom, thanks for digging up the info on the chainri...Tom, thanks for digging up the info on the chainrings. Nice tip about reversing the washer too.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05157101117520820570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-34804669523894455452009-03-05T16:25:00.000-05:002009-03-05T16:25:00.000-05:00Annon said: "VO is pretty much following the Surly...Annon said: "VO is pretty much following the Surly Model now."<BR/><BR/>Lets see if that's true:<BR/><BR/>Surly imports low-mid range frames from Taiwan. It also has a very few parts made in Taiwan and perhaps China. Nothing comes from the US, Japan, or Europe. there are no retro or classic parts.<BR/><BR/>VO imports hundreds of parts from France, Italy, Netherlands, Japan, and Taiwan as well as distributing US-made parts. VO also has many "retro" parts manufactured in the US and in Japan and in Taiwan.<BR/><BR/>Surly is owned by a large corporation, QPB.<BR/><BR/>VO is owned by one lone bike geek.<BR/><BR/>Surly frames are not made for fenders. They use high trail geometry.<BR/><BR/>VO frames are constructeur-style frames made for fenders, front racks, and lighting. They have low trail geometry.<BR/><BR/>Yep; it's easy to mix up VO and Surly. If you're totally clueless, that is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-66540267452034428122009-03-05T15:48:00.000-05:002009-03-05T15:48:00.000-05:00All you number geeks : http://www.sheldonbrown.com...All you number geeks : <BR/>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-83498183795813926082009-03-05T15:26:00.000-05:002009-03-05T15:26:00.000-05:00VO is pretty much following the Surly Model now.VO is pretty much following the Surly Model now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-7022851149590181742009-03-05T14:19:00.000-05:002009-03-05T14:19:00.000-05:00just heard from Sturmey: Our hubs are the XRF8- th...just heard from Sturmey: <BR/><BR/>Our hubs are the XRF8- the 305% range. Looks like the distros catalogues (our source for now) are accurate in their description of what they have in stock. The newer model has a (W) indicating 'wide'. The spacing is 124mm. Reversing the anti turn washer and putting it on the inside of the dropout will fit 130 frames. Another 5mm spacer on the left side will let it fit 135 frames.<BR/><BR/>The recommended chainring is 30 to 33t. This was from designing the hubs to fit on Dutch trekking bikes with a full chaincase that fit around 33t chainrings. <BR/>A 34t aint gonna kill you or the hub. A lower ring probably won't either.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01015305191743399671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-19428486587256237372009-03-05T14:04:00.001-05:002009-03-05T14:04:00.001-05:00Hey Tom,Thanks for taking time to respond to the m...Hey Tom,<BR/>Thanks for taking time to respond to the myriad questions and concerns brought up here. I don't understand the attitude of some of the posters here. In any case, its good to get the straight information, and I always look forward to new VO product offerings. The combination of practicallity, aesthetics, and price really makes VO stuff a great value, whether its from Taiwan, Japan, France, or U.S. or wherever. Please don't pay too much heed to the grouches.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11777627222904903651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-77178381342596569442009-03-05T14:04:00.000-05:002009-03-05T14:04:00.000-05:00I'd like to second the wish for a five-or-six-of-n...I'd like to second the wish for a five-or-six-of-nine cassette hub. There are alternatives from Hope and possibly Profile, but these are disc brake 135 OLD hubs. Also outrageously expensive; perhaps they must be?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24415034.post-37445081954435346392009-03-05T14:02:00.000-05:002009-03-05T14:02:00.000-05:00anon dude- you really think surly stuff is made in...anon dude- you really think surly stuff is made in Bloomington MN, USA? Can you pass the bong, cuz I wanna bit of what yer smoking. <BR/> <BR/>ppphhhuuuuuhhhhhh....<BR/><BR/>that's better. <BR/><BR/>alla their crap is made in Taiwan. Frames, handlabars, racks, cranks, the singlator, and their shitty cogs. <BR/><BR/>The 'Genius' of Surly is having everyone convinced it's made by some dudes in a bike shop that moonlight at daddys machine shop across the tracks . In their spare time inbetween drinking and riding of course. Do they ever sleep?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com